Does a Cubmaster have the right?

[scottsmom121]

I'm not sure where exactly to start but here it goes. Our Cubmaster(has now stepped down) made his rules we all felt as he went along. I was the Tiger Leader last year and when I asked him questions about things he said he knew nothing about the Tigers and didn't feel that he needed to. So I found another tiger leader that could answer my questions with another pack. Also, I am a believer (have scouting experiece previously both cub and girl scouts) that the kids should get any and all awards/pins etc. that they can to show them they are achieving something and their work is being noticed. This CM never felt these things were necessary and never gave them out. Only what was absolutely necessary such as rank. Needless to say, he was not happy when I pushed for the Tigers and my son's den (Wolf) to get what they deserved. He also lacked any sense of class with people skills. He took it upon himself infront of all the parents and leaders to inform one leader that she would no longer be serving as a leader(she suffers from asthma) and he was giving her a lateral transfer to a committe member position(we have more committe people doing nothing than anyone could imagine). Question here is does a CM have the right when a leader has done nothing wrong and works very hard to tell them they are no longer needed as a leader? I have been told basically the same and it was also announced at the same meeting that I would be finished as a leader after this coming year. I do have a disability of walking with a limp but always have an asst. leader or a parent present for things I know I absolutely could not do with the boys, these times are few actually. Our incoming CM was the Asst. Cubmaster and said he will abide by the same rules and decisions. This ACM did nothing but arrange camping before his taking over. He actually knows nothing as far as the basics of scouting. He was given the CM position from the outgoing CM asking him none of the leaders or anyone else had any input. A few of us have called our Counsel and asked questions but never given a real answer. Those of us that really care about the boys are really afraid our pack is going to fall apart there is no recruiting done at all outside of the school/church that sponsors us. Any new scouts are just kind of recruited by us leaders in conversation with other parents.

I guess this is about as clear as mud but if there is any input anyone can give us it would be great. We are basically some leaders that don't want to be turned out to pasture after a few years of working with the boys and want to stay involved in being leaders. There are no parents stepping up interested in taking over these positions and when someone does say they would do it it doesn't matter if they are really qualified to work with the kids or have the skills for communicate with the boys they are in cause they are a body to fill a spot.

Sorry this ended up so long.(This message has been edited by scottsmom121)

[evmori]

scottsmom121,

I was a Cubmaster for three years before moving onto Boy Scouts. The reason I took on the job was I felt the prior CM was useless. The Pack meetings were boring & not attended very well. The Cubs love getting stuff. While I was CM, my wife & I came up with interesting ceremonies & ways to present the arrow points, rank badges, activity pins, etc. We made it fun. We included the Tigers in every Pack meeting & they received their awards like the rest of the Pack.

 

It sound like the guy who was CM only took the job because no one else would. That;s not good & the only ones who suffer are the kids. The Cub program is supposed to be fun & a learning experience at the same time. If it isn't & they don't receive the awards they earned, then the Pack will suffer & the kids will probably drop out.

 

I'm not sure how the structure of the Cub program works now but when I was getting ready to step down, I hand picked my replacement. The Committee went along with my choice. I think the committee can make the decision to not accept the new CM.

 

Cubs is mor transient than Boy Scouts. Finding leaders is more of a full time job. I don't understand why someone would remove or move a leader from a position as long as they haven't violated any laws or BSA regs. The only reason that would be valid to me is that the persons talents could be better used in another position.

 

Good luck!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[sctmom]

Sounds like a serious problem. I can't remember the correct chain of command, but contact people in your District. Get the other concerned parents and leaders to have a face-to-face with people from the District. Go to Roundtable and talk to people there.

 

The boys do love getting rewards. It doesn't matter if they are meaningless to the adults. This is about the boys!

 

Is there another pack nearby you can transfer to?

 

Don't give up on Scouts because of a couple of people who are like this.

 

[acco40]

In short, no. The leader of a Cub Scout Pack is the committee chair. Actually the hierarchy is Chartered Organization, CO Representative, Committee Chair/Committee - Cubmaster. The primary duty of the Cubmaster is to emcee the monthly pack meetings. The CM and den leaders are NOT pack committee members.

[fboisseau]

No the Cubmaster does not have the right to decide what position you will serve in. Neither does the Committee chair or Charter Organization rep. The only person that has any power over your membership is the Charter Organization rep and the Council that you are members of, and that is only do deny you membership if you do not meet membership requirements.

[ScoutNut]

Did you ask your former CM why he wanted you and the other leader to step down? Did he give any reason at all? You said that there are no replacement leaders for your 2 dens. How does your current CM expect to have dens for these boys with no one to lead them?

 

Big question - IS ANYONE IN YOUR PACK TRAINED??

 

Your Charter Organization owns your Pack. Contact your Charter Organization Representative. It is his job (and the job of the Charter Org) to provide leadership to the unit. Your Council has very little to do with this issue.

[tdyer56]

As an asst. Cubmaster and Unit Commissioner, I see several problems. First, once a boy has earned ANY award, they should recieve it in a meaningful way...most of all fun. The old Cubmaster cannot pick and choose which awards to hand out.

 

Second, The old Cubmaster can only suggest the a leader step down. The final decision is made by the Committee and Chartered Org. I would bet that almost all Chartered Org. would have a problem removing a leader if they have done nothing wrong.

 

Third, the incoming Cubmaster needs to read the leaders manual and go through job specific traing. (I have trained all the leaders in my pack.) He will understand there what "rules" he needs th get rid of from the previous CM.

 

Please get in touch with your Unit Commissioner. They can be a great help. Have them sit down with the committee and pack leaders.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tim Dyer

UC

[NJCubScouter]

Short, by the book answer: Your Cubmaster does not have the right to remove a leader unilaterally. The person with the power to do that is the Chartered Organization Rep (or Institution Head, who appoints the COR.) (I know it's really CR but I hate those 2-letter BSA acronyms for things that have 3 letters, or that reverse the title (i.e. CA=Assistant Cubmaster.)

 

It is of course possible that in your case, the Cubmaster checked with the COR/IH before removing den leaders. It is also possible that the Chartered Organization as a whole simply doesn't care and effectively delegates its function to the Pack Committee. From your post, a third possibility seems more likely, which is that your Cubmaster essentially functions as a dictator. (I get that from the fact that he is appointing committee members, which is NOT his role.)

 

A dictatorship is what results when the other parents and the Chartered Organization don't care. Sometimes it means that the Cubmaster is doing such a phenomenal job that nobody wants to challenge him -- however, that is usually not accompanied by removals of den leaders without cause. If what you are saying is the whole story, he removed den leaders on the basis of chronic physical ailments and disabilities, which is something that might in fact arouse the interest of your council/district if the right person is contacted. Certainly Scouting actively seeks to accomodate boys with disabilities, and a pattern of removing disabled leaders for no good reason does not send a good message.

 

[evmori]

NJ,

Great post!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[yaworski]

What sort of awards was the CM ignoring? Belt loops? Those goofy bead for the "Immediate recognition kits"?

 

I've run across more than a few packs that don't award belt loops. If a boy earns one, the only way that he'll get it is if his parents buy it for him.

 

We've become obsessed with do-dads and gee-gaws of all sorts. Today, parents aren't happy unless their Johnny gets something every month. A belt loop in Cubs, a new color belt in Karate, a trophy for showing up to play soccer.

 

Not that many years ago, kids did things because they enjoyed them and the enjoyment was its own reward. Now, we shower our kids with "awards" to make them feel "special" with the result that nothing is special anymore.

 

As for the CM firing Den Leaders, as others have said, that isn't his job. The problem that I've observed in too many Packs is that no one goes to training so no one knows how anything works.

 

Give up your role as Den Leader and volunteer for a District Committee of some sort.

[scottsmom121]

Thank you all so very much for your answers. It is hard to approach anyone above our CM as both the outgoing and incoming CM's are both members of the Board with our Home and School (Our charter org.) After reading your answers I contacted my asst. leader and we talked alot!!! We are digging in and not letting things go the way they did. We will fight for the boys and for all our leader positions if we have to. He is new to being a leader this year but has read the leader handbook and now understands what I have been saying and is in total agreement with what I have done and said. They basically feel the boys should get their ranks and arrow points and that's about it. When my son received the conservation award this yr. I was approaced and told that they didn't like it when leader's boys got awards others didn't because it looks like they cheat......My boys all did know about the award and were all able to earn it by their own choice. All they had to do was the pack project the rest was done with their rank.

For some reason these CM's have gotten the idea that after a certain point in scouting ie Bears that a leader that is not 100% is not capable of handling the responsbilities. As I said the only things I can't do an asst. does. I can not do things such as sports or long hikes...in his eyes I guess that makes me a bad leader. I also have some wonderful parents who are always at everything so it's not like there isn't enough help to go around. Regardless of the fact every den of mine has had every boy go on and I have a wall full of thank you things from the boys and their parents. The one den that went on without me half way through the year lost 4 out of 10 boys. Not tooting my own horn but I feel I do a pretty good job with the boys. Try to keep things exciting so they are never really sure what is coiming. It was also kind of stated at the end of this past year that once a leader goes through once with a den they should not be able to go through the ranks with another group of boys. In other words, after 4 yrs. they figure you should quit.

They do push everyone to go to the basic training sessions. However, the other leader that he gave a committe position to and myself are the only ones that attended roundtable and pow wows. CM's do not usually attend these meetings.

I really don't want to transfer to another pack because I would feel like I was abandoning some of the boys that really have worked so hard to get where they are and I'm sure as most of you know they become special in your life too. I have had 2 other packs approach me and ask me to join them but I have so far refused.

I better quit before I write a novel again!!!

Thank you all so very much for your input I guess I just needed reassurance that I was right. And those of us that are firm in this will do what is right for the boys. Believe me I will keep on reading here for a long time.

 

(This message has been edited by scottsmom121)(This message has been edited by scottsmom121)

[Double Eagle]

Where to start. This sounds too familiar. Like earlier stated the Charter Organization has the say in the selection of the Cubmaster. The same for troops. Where you have only one person going for the position, I've seen where several wanted the positions of Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. This made an uneasy environment for the committee. Get help from your Unit Commissioner or Assistant District Commmissioner.

 

This guy is way out of bounds with removing leaders from their positions. The Cubmaster should be working with the den leader coach to help you.

 

Whether you have a disability or not does not a leader make. I think that this is a positive with the boys being able to openly talk about the problem. They are curious and what better way to see that a disability is really only in their minds, not yours.

 

Award these boys with what they earned. I have a scout spirit necklace that is earned every troop meeting. They keep it until the next meeting. The scouts seem to go for that more than some other things. The little achievements to us are monumental things to the boys. Recognize in public, counsel in private.

 

Sounds like your Cubmaster needs to be pryed from his pedestal. See if someone can't get him to a roundtable where things like this can be tabled. Not to attack him, but to help with the working of the pack. Its only time until the boys take up a negative attitude towards scouting with the current program.

 

 

 

[scottsmom121]

We have openly discussed my disability many times. They asked in the beginning what was wrong and I explained it all to them. I was born with a displaced kneecap causing one shorter leg. As I get older the limp becomes more prominent. I honestly think it has given some of them an understanding that it doesn't really make me any differet than them in most ways. It is almost as if now they don't even realize it anymore. Even when their leader slipped in a snowpile last winter...their reaction was no different than it was for anyone else that it happened to.

[sctmom]

In my area Cubmaster DO attend Roundtable. Everyone benefits from roundtable regardless of their position in the pack.

 

As others have said, your disability does not make you less of a leader. There should always be 2 leaders anyway, disability or not. Kids are much more accepting of disabilities than adults.

 

Stay in there and good luck.

 

[jbroganjr]

Here's my two cents on this.

As a CSRT (cub scout round table commissioner) 1. Not only you, but as many other leaders as you can get should go to RT. Your unit is not getting the info it needs. And while RT is not the forum for a **** session, asking about this in the open meeting my jolt a UC or other district member to take notice (Most hate getting involved with this stuff as it is a lose/lose situation, concerning CO, nat. BSA bylaws, etc), but the idea here is to find faces/resources for what I am about to suggest next.

Things will come to a head, especially with an idiot who judges people on physical ability (Also at Round Table, look around at all those big bodies and ask yourself...These guys hike? yeah, I'm one of those big bodies too!) and lords his almighty scouting power around like little lord fontelroy and the entire cub program is going to fail anyhow. Most parents don't have time or energy to put up w/this nonsense and will find other avenues....like chartering your own cub pack.

Don't think that starting up a new pack is an onerous thing, its not. Getting people to join up and be volunteers is the hard job. Money is also a hard, but not insurmountable part too. That thrifty part of the law is a neat lesson to learn anyhow! ;-}

 

Question, how many cubs are in the pack? how many packs are in the town? Numbers of available youth in an area can greatly effect the outcome of a new unit. With lots of kids, success can be easier than with a limited amount of youth. Always be positive, don't bad mouth and never give your nemesis the amunition to use against you! Let the world see them as they are and hope you witness their come uppence, just don't hold your breath.

 

As for awards, I was a CM for 5 years for a pack of 75 boys. It became to onerous to hand out non important ranks (like adv. towards rank, belt loops etc.) and so I trained/implemented den ceremonies for these achievements. Pack night was better spent having the boys "show off" their accomplishments rather than a long list of beads. For this trade off, I instituted Huge ceremonies for rank and important achievements, either serious or funny(never funny demeaning), always memorable. This accomplished a few things, boys and even their parents paid attention to the ceremony! Boys seemed to like showing off their accomplishments (in a positive scouting way) than getting another bead.

It sounds like you are stuck with another scouter who thinks this is so much more important than it is and forgot that if it is not for the boys, its for the birds!

tx.

Former CM

ASM

CSRT commish/trainer