hats indoors? yes or no?

[Rooster7]

I don't know how many times I was told at summer camp, by boys who did not even know me, to remove my official troop hat while I was outdoors, in full field uniform, saluting, at attention during the flag ceremony. Guess where they picked up that behavior? I'm guessing it was from a scout leader who never hesitated to do the same to the boys for whatever reason.

 

I have to agree that the boys' behavior in the above story was wrong. In fact, in my mind, their attitudes were deployable. However, it's their refusal to recognize the difference between adults and boys that rub me the wrong way. When I was a boy, whether I was dealing with a janitor or the principal, I treated adults as authority figures that should not be questioned or challenged, unless they gave you good reason to do so. "Good reason" being issues of safety primarily (i.e., don't get into a car with an adult just because he says so). Yes, even boys are worthy of respect, but not the same respect that boys should extend to adults.

 

I don't buy, "treat the boys like adults and they'll act like adults". It's been my experience that if you treat the boys like adults, they're apt to run you over. Of course, there is a time when the boys earn that respect. Until then, I have no problem treating them as the children they are. Children learn by repetition. So, I see no harm in reminding them to remove non-BSA hats during a flag ceremony, or to cover their hearts if they're out of uniform. They are in the program to have fun, but they're also there to learn. Adults are volunteers. They're in the program to help the boys, not to be taught by them or by other adults. The boys should know the difference. Furthermore, there are times when a boy brings public admonishment on himself. If you're conducting a Scoutmaster minute and the same boy interrupts you for the third time, are you going to wait until your minute is up? Or, are you going to do something to correct the situation immediately? On the other hand, as a boy matures and displays the behavior expected of a Scout, I agree that he deserves an extra measure of respect, perhaps even equal to that which is extended to most adults.

 

Despite my "rant", I agree with almost all of what's been said. My pet peeve is treating children as adults. Boy Scouts or not, children need to be instructed. Sometimes that instruction deals with poor behavior. If it can be done in private, great! If not, I guess it's a judgment call, but I think there are times when it needs to be done in public.

 

Just so that I'm not misunderstood, everything should be measured and kept in proportioned to the situation. I'm not advocating screaming at kids. I am saying that sometimes the situation warrants an adult to say, what needs to be said, immediately.

[shemgren]

I have just came back from my council's Webelos Resident Camp this weekend, where I serve as Event Director, I always instruct the Webelos Scouts to remove "non-Scout" hats and at the opening assembly on Saturday, I explain to them what is and is not a Scout Hat. I normally wear a compaign hat, which is a visual aid I use to help the Scouts understand. It is very helpful for giving graces and chapel. Staff can be instructed to set the example.

 

Doing the training I conduct, I always inform the trainees about the proper use of the Scout sign, and NOT to shout out: "sign's up!" I attended a wedding a few years back for a good freind, and he wanted to get the attention of the group. Without thinking, I stuck up the Scout sign, the crowd grew quiet and about half the crowd returned it. LOL.

[kd6rxy]

Shemgren

 

Uniform hats, non-uniform hats, when in uniform, we wear the uniform hat.

 

In our unit Non-uniform hats are not worn with the uniform.

 

It brought things down to, I do this when in uniform, that when not in uniform. The scouts appreciated it being easier to remember.

 

Oh, and the scout sign thing. I did it at a Knights of Columbus meeting. I was impressed with the resonse.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

[shemgren]

scoutmaster454:

I would prefer that the Scouts would not wear non-Scout hats with the the uniform, but many units do nothing to discourage this practice.

 

IMHO the uniform should be worn correctly or not at all. At Webelos Resident Camp last weekend, I spent a lot of time reminding Scouts to tuck in the uniform shirt, pin placement, etc. If I was a wealthy man, I would give each person who doesn't compily with uniforming a copy of the Insigna Guide! The best I can do is model by example and keep reminding them.

[kd6rxy]

Shemgren

 

I went back and read your post again and you were in a situation where you were dealing with many troops and had no control, my apologies.

 

I ask my troop to wear the uniform as correct as they possibly can. I am still trying to get them to require the green pants.

 

But mine is not many units and I can deal with it in my troop (usually with uniform inspections).

 

I have boys bring their uniforms to meetings, COH, etc wadded up in a bag and ask me if they need to wear it. I answer them that it is for them to decide.

 

If they decide to not wear it, or wear it wrong, I ask the SPL to include a uniform inspection in todays meeting. Since he has bought into the idea of wearing the uniform properly, he does it. He wants them all to wear it properly and look good doing it.

 

 

 

[scomman]

As for hats on during flag ceremony offical or not. I have always been instructed and will instruct hats off during flag ceremony. Why? My Scoutmaster as a kid was ex military andhe stated only ones tokeep their hats on were the ones in the military. All others are to take there hats off as a sign of respect to the flag and for what it stands for.

 

During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in parade all persons should face the flag, stand at atten tion and salute. A man should remove his hat and hold it with the right hand over the heart. Men without hats, and women salute by placing the right hand over the heart. The salute to the flag in the moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.

 

Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 9 of the US Code says

Sec. 9. - Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag

 

During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes

 

Please note that the Uniform mentioned is Military not Scout

 

Again Title $ Chapter 1 Section 4 of the US Code

Sec. 4. - Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

 

 

 

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, ''I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute

 

 

[FScouter]

scomman:

Assuming that "salute" means three fingers to the brow or to the bill of the uniform hat, under what circumstances may Boy Scouts in uniform salute the U.S. flag, in your opinion?

[acco40]

The key difference between the interpretation of scomman and myself is I interpret the BSA adults and youths in uniform (full field uniform) to be in uniform and scomman does not. The interpretation that the flag code use of the term uniform means "military" uniform and only military uniform I disagree with.

 

I one happens to read the full flag code, one would also notice that those popular post 9/11 flags flying from so many automobiles these days is a definite no-no.

[scomman]

We do the three fingers to the brow salute to the flag with hats off and on a table. I pointed what the code sys as a refrence and to point out what the law says and why there are many intrepertations of it.

 

I do not consider the scout uniform on par with the military uniform as we are not to be run like we are the military. This is my opinion. And I will always ask everyone to take their hat off during the pledge.

 

 

[Rooster7]

scomman,

 

We are not to discipline or drill Scouts as if they are in the military. However, there are many things that are considered militaristic that are perfectly acceptable. For example: Marching in uniform in a parade is not only allowed, its encouraged. While BSA advises charters and Scouters that troops are not to be run like a paramilitary organization, they do not condemn all things that are considered military. This issue was rather hotly debated on this forum back in October. I know because I was part of that discussion. At the time the 9-11 attack was fueling my emotions. Regardless, I stand by my posts. Please see this thread -"Saluting" under "Open Discussion - Program".(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[scomman]

What I was trying to say is that in my opinon the Boy Scout Uniform is not the same as a military uniform.

 

The Boy Scout handbook says "When you are wearing your Scout Uniform with or without the hat greet the flag with a Scout Salute anytime you pass it it passes you or you see it being hoisted or lowered. Give the Scout Salute when you recite the pledge Of Allegiance to.

 

You can take this to mean that tleaving the hat on in fuul uniform is acceptable or not. I am just stating that I was always taught and will teach to remove the hat during the Pledge because all the Boy's in my troop do not and will not wear the Offical hat. Therefore it isnt part of the uniform.(This message has been edited by scomman)

[NJCubScouter]

I thought I had posted this before, but I don't see it. Maybe it was another thread?

 

I was a member of 1 pack and 2 troops as a boy, and am an adult leader of a pack today, and in all these units, uniform hats are/were worn indoors. During strenuous games they are taken off. Maybe the fact that all of these units met/meet in either a public school or public community center, and not a place of worship, have something to do with it. I don't recall anybody ever saying anything about it. I think the assumption is, if you are wearing a uniform, you wear the full uniform, indoors and out, and the hat is part of the uniform. If you are doing something where part of the uniform can get in the way or lost (i.e. the hat and the neckerchief and slide) you take them off. But during the opening ceremony, the boys wear the hat. Anyway, that is how I was taught, and it's apparently also how both our current Cubmaster and his predecessor were taught as well. (Current Cubmaster was a Scout, I don't know about the old one.)

 

I was also taught that a Scout salutes the flag by placing the fingers against the edge (or brim, if it has one) of the hat. Indoors or out. That implies that the hat is being worn. If there is a distinction between a military uniform and a Scout uniform that requires different conduct in saluting the flag, I've never heard about it. I've never read it. I don't see any reason for it. I do understand that the Boy Scouts tries not to make itself seem militaristic, though I think this is much more the case today than when I was a Boy Scout (1969-76.) However, I don't know of a rule that says that just because the military does something, we don't do it. The military marches in formation in parades, and Lord knows we try to do that with our Cubs, though keeping some of the Tigers even on the same street with the rest of us is a challenge.

 

Scomman, I don't see anything in the statute you quoted that says the "uniform" has to be a military uniform in order for the wearer to do a hand salute with hat on. I understand that a baseball uniform or a McDonald's uniform don't make it. I am trying to think of whether the American Legion and VFW guys do a hand salute with hats on, or take them off and place hand over heart.

 

It could be that everything I have been taught is wrong, but if so I would be interested in seeing a BSA publication that actually says so.

 

[acco40]

scomman, you write that "You can take this to mean that leaving the hat on in full uniform is acceptable or not." If so, why not teach the boys this and that YOUR interpretation is to remove your hat.

 

And by the way, just because the boys do not wear their hats does not mean it is not part of the uniform, it is!

[kd6rxy]

I am getting confused here, I can't tell if you are talking indoors or outdoors. And I think there is a difference.

 

Let's talk about indoors.

 

Look at the post by Fscouter that quotes the Insignia Guide (3rd from the top). The boys should only be wearing thier uniform hats indoors when in uniform and only during formal ceremonies except in religious institutions where custom forbids. And it says "may" which means there is a choice.

 

If the custom in the church id no hats, then they should be off! If not then then choose.

 

I haven't a clue as to public buildings, etc except to say that I was taught that hats come off in any building.

 

Now Outside

 

No reason I know of to have hats off except maybe for a prayer service. I have never seen where it is written that you take a hat off for the flag.

 

(Don't want to get this started again here, but about the salute thing, the boy scout handbook also gives us instructions for saluting, To the brow with no hat, to the brim of the hat, with hat. Two years ago, we had the honor of having a large number of active and retired military men home for the Memorial Day service which was held outdoors. I was watching them. They removed their hats ONLY for prayer. Saluted the flag when they went by it, or it went by, and when the National Anthem was being played.)

 

[scomman]

Acco wrote And by the way, just because the boys do not wear their hats does not mean it is not part of the uniform, it is!

 

Yes I know there is a offical hat.

 

My point that I have been trying to make is that the interpertation is open to everyone. And yes some people could take it to mean a McDonald's uniform.

 

I printed the section from the code and the handbook to point out what offical sources say.

 

And unless Congress passes a law and includes the Boy Scout Uniform in that passage I will still ask for hats off during flag ceremonies from my troop and at camp when we are doing flag rasing.