hats indoors? yes or no?

[kd6rxy]

Acco40 posted this in another thread:

 

"When in our field uniforms the boys perform an opening and closing flag ceremony as I'm sure most of you do too. There is always one particular scoutmaster who admonishes a boy or two to remove their hat during the ceremony. His belief is that we are indoors and that one removes their hat as a sign of respect for the flag. My view is that if the hat is part of the uniform, stay in uniform. Also, if he wants to show respect for the flag in that manner, good for him but don't impose his beliefs on others. Lead by example I say."

 

In respect to the flag.

 

I was taught that when out of uniform, and wearing a hat, you should remove it with your right hand and place it over your left shoulder so that your hand is over your heart (where you hand goes if you don't have a hat) when you say the pledge, or sing or hear the national anthem, whether you are indoors or out.

 

When in uniform, and wearing a hat you salute the flag with your hand at the edge of your hat when you are outdoors.

 

My CC and I had this discussion once. He says that in the military, when indoors, you remove your hat (unless you are armed). And that he thinks that the scouts should remove thier hats indoors regardless.

 

I was taught that a man should remove his hat indoors - period.

 

So , if indoors you should not have your hat on, so when you are in uniform, you salute the flag with your hand to your brow.

 

I think this is correct etiquette. Am I wrong?

[berkshirescouter]

You are correct.

I was in the Navy and their policy was to remove hats indoors. I believe the Army is different. The only issue would be to keep a hat on for religious reasons or medical (loss of hair due to chemo).

Our troop removes hats indoors.

[FScouter]

According to the Insignia Guide #33066C, Headgear Regulations:

Official headgear may be worn while the unit or individual is participating in an indoor formal ceremony or service duty, except in religious institutions where custom forbids. Typical indoor activities of this type are flag ceremonies, inspections, orderly duty, or ushering service. In any informal indoor activity where no official ceremony is involve, the headgear is removed as when in street clothes.

 

[acco40]

Army, Navy, Scouts, they may all have different rules and regulations concerning the issue. My original point was not what was the proper etiquette but simply that it is considered bad etiquette to point out bad etiquette in public!

 

In other words, while we may debate the proper etiquette for removing ones uniform hat while indoors for a flag ceremony, it is not acceptable to admonish someone who does not follow what you may believe is correct in front of everyone else. We have some parents who do not stand and place their hands over their hearts (forgetfulness?) during the Pledge of Allegiance. I would not dream of yelling out to them to stand up during the Pledge recitation. I may quietly explain to them later on in private that we are teaching the boys that it is customary to stand and place ones hands over their heart while in "civies."

 

However, if you are taking a poll, I agree with Fscouter, while in full field uniform, the removal of ones hat is not required under the state circumstances.

[acco40]

Sorry I could not let this one pass.

 

Loss of hair for medical reasons? Come on, I call that vanity. Chemotherapy and or illness (medical reasons) may have caused the hair loss but wearing a hat does not alleviate any illness that I am aware of.

[Mike Long]

Our troop meets in a church so the hats are always removed during meetings, this has grown so customary ans natural to us that the troop never wears hats when indoors.

[kd6rxy]

acco40,

 

I agree with everything you have said here. I had been wanting to ask this for a while but never remembered when I was online and when you posted it, It sparked the memory. So off I went. I was taking a pole, so to speak, but was also loooking for solid policy too.

 

I have had the same problem with a few adults, but found a way to aleviate it without having to say much. When I ask for people to stand and recite the pledge, I refuse to begin until everyone is standing. They usually get the picture when everyone starts looking around to see why we haven't started. those parents are prompt the next time.

 

Sorry, if I seemed like I was taking you to task, I really wasn't. I was just using it to get my thought started.

 

FScouter,

 

Thank you! That is exactly what I needed to see here. A reference to a Boy Scout Manual on this very subject.

 

I do not remember what branch of the service our CC was in. But he is a County Court Judge and I feel I must substantiate my side of the discussion when we have a difference of opinion. especially when he thinks he is right and we should do it his way.

 

We meet in a Church fellowship hall/gym that is not actually part of the church building itself. But we have COH's in the church itself. When there, all hats come off at the front door.

 

Thanks everyone for the answers.

[evmori]

acco40,

Wearing a hat because of illness won't cure the illness but it does help alleviate the embarrassment of being bald. Especially for women. Vanity? Maybe. Is this wrong? Absolutly not.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[rlculver415]

acco40 -

 

Twice I have read a comment from your posts concerning the poor etiquette of an adult leader when he admonished a scout to remove his hat. I just cannot resist commenting any longer.

 

While you would be correct if one adult was admonishing another adult, it is the responsibility of an adult in authority over minors in their charge to remind them of proper etiquette, even in public as long as he doesn't create a scene. How is a boy to learn/remember if the adults in his life do not teach him/remind him? This is not just a parental responsibility. The Scout Law declares "a Scout is courteous". Courtesy and etiquette are synonyms. Adult leaders therefore are not only correct to admonish boys in proper etiquette, it is their responsibility whenever the need arises. If the situation you are referring to caused an embarrassing scene, then that was discourteous (the scene, that is). Any such admonition should be done quietly.

[scomman]

We believe that the entire church building is a no hat zone including the gym fellowship hall entryway and chapel. We teach our boys and adults that to wear a hat in a church is not proper. So we take them off in all buildings including ones at camp where the rule is no hats on during meals.

 

As for the pledge we ask Will everyone please rise for the pledge of allegiance to our flag. The scouts will salute the flag and we ask that you place your hand over heart and it is amazing everyone actually does this.

[kd6rxy]

Ed Mori,

 

Absolutely right in my opinion. Better to preserve the dignity than to enforce the rule.

 

rlculver415

 

The post is no doubt the same, I copied it here to get my point started.

 

While I agree with you, the "praise in public, criticize in private" phrase comes to mind. I believe in scouting that private means taking one to the side in "public". That is his responsibility, if taking him aside to speak to him is embarassing, I guess you are right, but I think this guy is telling them in front of the group so everyone can hear, that is wrong.

 

scomman

 

I think that is very proper. And I think I will ask the pastor of our church (or at the next board meeting) what the rule is for our church and hall. That way, I can do what the CO wishes.

 

Thanks for all the input.

[Quixote]

Real example:

 

Thursday morning - walked into the dining hall at camp with the troop - All the older boys removed their caps upon entering - most of the new scouts in the troop didn't - just a reminder of "Hats off, guys" did the trick. nobody was emberassed and only one or two made the same mistake in the evening - by friday, everyone removed their caps upon entering the dining hall.

 

I'm guessing that Mon - Wed. they ate with their caps on. Most everybody else in the dining hall did not have their caps on either.

 

Quixote

 

[acco40]

Let me recap what I have seen posted, admonish adults for bad etiquette - bad, admonish boys - okay. Remove hats in a church, good, except if hair has been lost due to illness, or maybe if in military uniform or except if against your religious teachings, or except if ...

 

At what magic age do you go from a boy to adult? I need to know so I can properly admonish. Don't you see, if we treat the boys with the same respect that we treat the adults, they just might act like adults. If we continually treat them like children, guess what. I'm not saying never to be critical in public. But you see, even as "educated" adults we have an honest difference of opinion about wearing a uniform hat indoors. Why critique a boy in public over that issue. Let him know what you feel is proper in private.

 

I don't know how many times I was told at summer camp, by boys who did not even know me, to remove my official troop hat while I was outdoors, in full field uniform, saluting, at attention during the flag ceremony. Guess where they picked up that behavior? I'm guessing it was from a scout leader who never hesitated to do the same to the boys for whatever reason.

 

It reminds me of the controversy we can all relate to about giving the scout sign in a group setting. The unwritten rule is that when someone gives the scout sign, be quiet! What do many leaders do the minute the sign goes up? They immediately violate the rule by calling out "signs up!" The boys then emulate this deplorable practice. See we can all learn, even as adults.

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[rlculver415]

I have no disagreement with SM424. Good recap of what I was attempting to say.

 

acco40 - you are correct that boys should not remind adults of proper etiquette. I missed that point. The point at which boys (minors) become adults is 18, legally. I am not referring to religious rites of passage.

 

I, too, believe it is possible and desirable to treat all people with respect, regardless of age, etc. At no time should any adult leader talk down to a boy or treat him as an inferior or use negative reinforcement as a training method (ie - embarrassment, ridicule, etc). All children need training and guidance as they grow into adulthood. We Scouters are also bound by the Scout Law as we do our part in this endeavor.

 

"Signs Up!" - gotta agree with you there, too. Our cub pack would shout out that phrase. Maybe the young guys needed that, but it seemed odd to me to request silence by shouting about it. Our troop just waits. It takes a little longer, but often seems more effective as one boy whispers to another to quiet down. Of course, sometimes it just hard to settle.

 

[kd6rxy]

Signs up!

 

Our unit commisioner does that. I wait too! There is no better way to get them to stop talking than when they figure out they are the only one, the signs up, and everyone is looking at them.

 

About the abmonishing thing though, If an ASM was to do something he shouldn't (such as, admonish a boy in public), you bet I will pull him aside and talk to him about it in private, I am not sure if that is admonishing him or not, just explaining things aren';t done that way. He apparently needs to know and someone should be telling him. I guess as SM that would be me, but I wouldn't see a problem with anyone telling him or me if I did it.

 

Saying 'Hats off" to the group as you go into the mees hall is fine in my book (I am sure AI will be doing it next week at camp.) saying, "Tommy, I've told you everytime this week to take that hat off in the mess hall" n fron tof the group is not fine.