pledge

[evmori]

jcfraz,

I went back & re-read your previous posts. You stated you are a Presbyterian. So am I. I believe in God so I must make the assumption you do, too. You also stated saying the pledge especially the phrase "under God" is against you religious beliefs. How so? I propose what you wrote in your post "One Nation Under God Indvisible .... Really?" is not your words. It reads like an article from a publication. Also, since you stated you are about to become a First Class Scout, you must be between 11 to 15 years old. If this is true, what you posted is way above your head for your age. I propose you don't even understand what you are arguing about and are espousing someone else's views. I look forward to your response.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Jcfraz]

Mr. Mori-

I'm Very sorry for the response I posted accusing you of cussing, I didn't realize you were quoting someone.(By the way, who were you quoting?)

 

No, my problem isn't with saying "One Nation, Under God".

Our Nation was founded on Biblical principals, but our country doen't support Christianity like it did then.

I'm sorry I didn't say, the article I posted is not something I wrote; it's an editorial my dad wrote.

God is Soverign,

Jcfraz

[evmori]

jcfraz,

Thanks for your response. However, you didn't answer my questions.

 

Whether our country supports Christianity like it did in the past (your opinion not mine) is irrevalant. What is important is that you - if you are a Christian - continue to support Christianity regardless of what our country does. This is one nation under God. He created the earth we live on. This is His country.

 

Looking forward to the answers to my questions.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

jefraz, Ed, et. all

 

The phrase "one nation, under God" IS NOT in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge of Allegiance uses the phrase "one nation under God"; there is no comma between nation and under! Please don't verbalize the pledge in that manner.

 

As I stated much earlier in this thread, I've had four boys in our troop who were not US citizens. They were not pledging allegiance to their flag as some have stated, (which was in the original pledge which simply state I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic ...) but to the US flag. Should they be required to do this? They all willingly repeat the pledge but I would argue that they should not be required to do so. Scouting is an international organization and brotherhood. I know that there are BSA requirements to recite the pledge but I don't necessarily agree with them. I believe all scouts should be good citizens of their community, nation and the world. I don't believe that reciting a pledge is a necessary condition for good citizenship. As can be said for most everything, actions speak much louder than words.

[NJCubScouter]

Acco says:

 

The phrase "one nation, under God" IS NOT in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge of Allegiance uses the phrase "one nation under God"; there is no comma between nation and under! Please don't verbalize the pledge in that manner.

 

Acco, I have seen this claim made before in various places on the Internet, that the Pledge of Allegiance should be recited with no pause between the words "nation" and "under." I understand that there is no comma between the words. I also understand that I have recited the pledge as part of a group probably thousands of times, and in all those times, EVERYBODY has put a pause there. That's the way I was taught to say it, and that's the way I say it.

 

If the "pause" creates a difference in meaning, I don't know what it is.

 

[Jcfraz]

Mr. Mori,

I understand what you mean... What I was trying to say is that(sad to say) our nation, in the Way it uses God's name, says that everyone who has a religion can say the pledge becuase were talking about everybodies god. I don't have any ploblem whatsoever saying; under God.

 

As Acco said, a citizen shouldn't have to say the pledge to prove their patriotism.

-Jcfraz

[sctmom]

Jcfraz,

Are you saying that people who don't believe in the same Christian God that you do should NOT say the pledge of allegience?

 

[evmori]

JcFraz,

Now I'm really confused. If you don't have a problem saying "under God", why won't you say the pledge?

 

acco40,

Sorry. I meant no disrespect.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Jcfraz]

The reason I don't say the pledge is because;

 

a.It was written by a socialist: Francis Bellamy

b.Our nation isn't,"indivisible"

c.*

d.A citzen doesn't need a pledge to there country's flag to prove there patriotism

 

*it can not be enforced because people that don't want to say it, that have to, can't be forced to mean it. And if they don't, what's the point???

 

-Jcfraz

[NJCubScouter]

Jcfraz says:

 

The reason I don't say the pledge is because;

 

a.It was written by a socialist: Francis Bellamy

 

I think most people who have learned this fact recently (as I did when the "Pledge decision" came out last month, accompanied by historical articles on the Pledge) were surprised to learn that the Pledge was written by a "socialist." But what does that really mean? I just went looking around the Internet and found this site

 

http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm

 

It discusses Bellamy somewhat and has links to other articles that go into greater depth. After skimming this material, I have to conclude that author of the original version of the Pledge believed the U.S. should have a different economic system, but that he was not "anti-American." Remember that there was no Soviet Union at the time, no "socialist" or "communist" country threatening invasion of our allies or nuclear annhiliation of ourselves. In fact there were no socialist or communist countries anywhere at the time. Socialism was seen by some as an answer to some of the inequities that always plague our economic system. A socialist did not necessarily hate America, and in the 1890's and probably on through the 1940's, the vast majority did not. (I do have somewhat of a personal interest in this subject; whenever a relative on my mother's side of the family passes away, we go to the multiple grave-site originally acquired by my grandfather, and I note that the section of the cemetary is designated for the "People's Benevolent Workingmen's Society," or something like that. My mother knows nothing about this, but I have my guess. If my grandfather was a "socialist," I am sure it was purely a matter of economic justice. He had fled Russia as a young man, and I don't think he had any admiration for the place at any time, though unfortunately he was not around for me to ask him.)

 

Back to Francis Bellamy and his "socialism": Today we associate socialism with atheism, but it is clear from the above-cited article that this was not Bellamy's belief. In fact, he believed that socialism as an economic system was based on the Bible. (And he was a Baptist minister until they threw him out; he ended his working life as an advertising salesman and copy-writer. Some socialist.)

 

But maybe the best answer is, the Pledge stands by itself, regardless of who wrote it. Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration and he also owned slaves. I know there is a lot of controversy over this these days, but in my opinion Jefferson was still a great man, and the Declaration is no less valid because he engaged in a terrible practice that was considered acceptable where and when he lived.

 

b.Our nation isn't,"indivisible"

 

As others have said, this part of the Pledge is (in my words) "aspirational," meaning it is what we as a nation want to be. We are not claiming "God-like" omnipotence; to the contrary, we know that our nation could be divided, because it once was, and we do not want it to happen again. In fact, there was some quotation from Bellamy on that web site that suggested that he was specifically thinking of the Civil War (which had ended only 27 years prior to the writing of the Pledge) when he wrote "indivisible" into the Pledge. He and all Americans did not want that to happen again, and we still don't, so we say so in the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

c. it can not be enforced because people that don't want to say it, that have to, can't be forced to mean it. And if they don't, what's the point???

 

This was in 2 pieces, I put them together. About those who "have to say it," I hope you realize that in a public school (where I have a suspicion you do not go based on your father's essay, but anyway), you do not have to say the Pledge. The Supreme Court decided that more than 50 years ago. (The issue in the current case is whether teachers in a public school may lead the Pledge for those who do wish to say it.) The government cannot require you to say it anywhere. The Boy Scouts probably are a different story, which is where you have gotten into a conflict with your Scoutmaster. If he has decided that refusing to say the Pledge without a real religious objection shows a lack of "Scout Spirit," he may be able to deny you advancement, though you do have a right to appeal to higher levels.

 

Now, as for those who "don't mean it," I guess the question is, mean what? The Pledge is not(in my opinion) to a piece of cloth, but to a country and its people, "for which it stands." Maybe you can pledge allegiance to that. Do you like being an American? Do you want to be an American? If not, that's fine with me, but as I said in one of my previous posts in this thread, I am not sure how fine it is with the BSA if you say so out loud.

 

d.A citzen doesn't need a pledge to there country's flag to prove there patriotism

 

I don't really have an argument with that. I think we would all survive if there were no Pledge of Allegiance. It is really how we treat each other (in both the individual and collective sense) as well as our natural resources, that proves our citizenship, in my opinion. (I just came up with that, by the way, so it is open to future editing if someone were to point out something missing.) The flag is the symbol, not the substance.

 

And again, that may be a fine reason for not saying the pledge in government-sponsored settings if you do not want to. When it comes to the Scouts, once again, it is a different issue.

 

Now, having said all that, I see in another post that you have acknowledged that your father wrote the essay, which I will now stop calling the "manifesto." Assuming that my brilliant logic does not persuade you and your family that you can/should say the Pledge at Scout meetings, can't Dad sit down with the Scoutmaster and talk things out? Perhaps if he does so, the Scoutmaster will accept your position as a religious belief and not make you say the Pledge.

 

[Jcfraz]

NJ,

Thank you for your response and your past responses. I really appriciate your help.

-Jcfraz

[evmori]

NJ,

Excellent post! You took most of the words out of my mouth!

 

Jcfraz,

Do you know what the word indivisible means? Look it up! If I were your Scoutmaster, I would not let you advance either based on your lack of Scout Spirit. Do you have a problem with the Scout Promise? The word God is in there, too!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10