pledge

[Rooster7]

Jcfraz,

 

Earlier in this thread, you posted:

 

My current situation is that I will be 1st class soon but when My scout master found out Saying the pledge is aigainst my religios beliefs he questioned my qualifications to pass any ranks at all!

 

More recently, you submitted the above post, which begins with - "One nation, under God, indivisible..." Really?

 

Am I to believe that the same person wrote these postings? There seems to be a disparity in style and substance. Did you fail to give credit to someone else? Regardless, I'm not sure that it is a good argument for removing the words "under God". You make some good points. Yet, I still believe the phrase is important because it tells the world what we aspire to be as a nation. Also, I fail to see how this writing supports your claim for refusing to say the pledge.

 

[sctmom]

Rooster, I don't think he wants to say the pledge AT ALL, even without the "under God" phrase.

 

Jcfraz, I still don't understand why you don't want to say the pledge. Are you looking for a battle to fight? Many of us do that, especially as teenagers. A piece of advice is to pick your battles and look at why you are fighting it.

 

Also, how can you scoutmaster say you can't advance any further without saying the Pledge? It's not a stated requirement for anything past joining. Is he saying it is part of Scout Spirit?

 

One of the requirements for First Class is:

5. Visit and discuss with a selected individual approved by your leader (elected official, judge, attorney, civil servant, principal, teacher) your Constitutional rights and obligations as a U.S. citizen.

 

If you have not done this yet, this might be great time to discuss your views and listen to another person's viewpoint on this.

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

"sanctioning of Wiccan services (devil worship) on military bases"

 

Wiccans do NOT worship the devil. The devil is a Christian belief. Wiccans don't even belief in a devil or hell.

 

 

[sctmom]

Jcfraz,

 

Please let us know where you got the information you posted yesterday.

 

I think you need to talk to your parents and religious leader about your stance on the Pledge. You need to consider the source of your information about the definition of "patriotism". Sounds like you a smart young man to even be thinking about this subject. Do not fall victim to believing everything you read or hear.

 

Also, consider why you are fighting this battle. Are you just looking for something to stand up for and fight? We all do that at times, especially as teenagers.

 

[Quixote]

JCfraz, you posted

Yes, I have done the req. that says to say the pledge. I'm just trying to get past that without having to say the pledge, (THERE"S JUST GOTTA BE A WAY!)

 

You're saying that you recited the pledge upon joining, but won't recite it again? is that right?

 

I can understand that you might have received some enlightenment since joining that makes you believe that you can't say the pledge, but it sounds like sctmom has hit on the point - i.e. that you're looking for something to argue about.

 

Since you're claiming that it's a religious reason and you're Presbytirian and they (as a religion) don't have a problem with the pledge, it seems that your faith isn't in line with the religion you're espousing to belong to.

 

Is it your religion or your FAITH that gives you pause?

 

Is this a scout spirit issue with the SM?

 

Quixote

[Jcfraz]

No, I'm not just trying to come up with somthing to fight about.

 

My family and i just don't believe that the pledge it right, or nessasary to say.

 

thanks,Jcfraz

[Mike Long]

The BSA does though and have made it a requirement. So much so that it is the fourth thing you do to become a member right after be old enough, find a troop and fill out a medical form.

 

And unless you have a compelling reason other than "I don't like it" and arguments of convenience you don't have a case.

 

Might I suggest you look more closely at the traditions and belief systems of an organization BEFORE you join it?

 

Picking a fight for the sake of fighting isn't scoutlike.

[Rooster7]

Is the pledge right?

 

As a statement of fact, it is probably not completely right (or accurate). Some could argue that our nation is not "indivisible". Many social, political, and economical issues divide our country today. However, I would respond by noting that we are united in our desires to be a nation where many opinions can be expressed. In this sense, we can claim to be "indivisible". Regardless, I don't view the pledge as a statement of fact. To me, it's a declaration that this is what our nation aspires to be.

 

Is the pledge necessary?

 

As free people, nothing is necessary but to follow the laws of the land. However, private organizations are free to make their own requirements for membership. From the perspective of a private organization, especially a patriotic group such as BSA, I would say it is right and necessary. From the perspective of an American citizen, who is free to associate with whomever he pleases, I would say the decision is his. Yet, the individual cannot dictate the membership requirements of the private organization. BSA has a right to maintain its standards as they see fit.

 

Going back to your original post. How does your Scoutmaster intend to hinder your progress in rank advancements (if you chose to no longer say the pledge)? Or, did I misread your post? If you've already joined BSA, this should be a moot issue. As was noted by others, I do not recall any rank advancement requiring the recitation of the pledge.

 

This brings us back to sctmom's post. You seem to be picking a fight that doesn't need to be fought. If your intention is to be a crusader for like-minded boys that have yet to join, I guess I understand your interest. Nevertheless, you will find no sympathy from me as you do battle with BSA. The pledge of allegiance does not supersede my allegiance to God. There is nothing in the pledge that opposes my moral beliefs. The ideas presented are noble and worthy of a nation aspiring to serve its people.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[evmori]

To me, it goes to Scout Spirit, the Oath & Law. If the Troop (mine does) opens each meeting with the pledge and you refuse to say it, then I would say you are lacking in Scout Spirit. I would also consider saying the pledge you duty to your country & when you recite the Scout Law, you say a Scout is loyal. Loyal to yoursels, the Troop, your country, etc.

 

Many men and women died for this country. The flag is a symbol of the freedom this country is all about. By reciting the pledge you are saying you believe in the symbol of our country & what is stands for.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ScoutParent]

jcfraz: another point of view for you to consider follows-------

 

 

John McCain explains the Pledge of Allegiance

By Sen. John S. McCain, a Vietnam era Navy Captain and POW

 

WASHINGTON, DC -- As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

 

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country, and our military, provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle.

 

Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed it on the inside of his shirt. Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell, it was indeed the most important and meaningful event .

 

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours.

 

Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could. The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

 

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.

 

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.

 

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I was waiting to give a more substantive response to Jcfraz's question until he was better able to explain what his religious beliefs are that he feels prohibits him from saying the Pledge of Allegiance. Jcfraz, as others have said, your lengthy "manifesto" (as I call it) does not seem to be your own work. I wonder whether, as a Second Class Scout, a boy of probably 11 to 13 years of age, you actually understand much of what you posted in that particular message. That is not an insult, as parts of it are rather bewildering to me, and I am 44 years old and have a law degree.

 

But I'm going to assume that the "manifesto" actually does represent your views. I am not going to comment on it specifically, though it will not surprise regular members of the forum to read that I disagree with the bulk of the opinions expressed therein. (I just have to say though, that my eyes were knocked out by the definition of patriotism as "the worship of the God of the Bible set in action within a country..." So much for the separation of church and state, I guess. (Calm down Ed and Rooster, I know what you're thinking.) Also, whenever I am reading a political essay with a sentence that begins with the words "I'm not advocating secession, but...", well as my son would say, Red Alert, Shields Up!

 

No, my main point is that what your manifesto expresses is not, at its basis, a religious belief, but really a political one. While religion and politics certainly are not mutually exclusive, this strikes me more as a matter of political philosophy. Some of what you write, I have read elsewhere on the Internet, in essays by those who call themselves anarchists or anarchocapitalists. (The latter are often atheists, though.) These are people who do not believe in government at all, and while you do not come out and say you do not believe in government, there is a strong flavor of that. Or maybe it is more against secular government. Whatever it is, it is a "fringe" belief, and if its result is that you will not recite the basic statement of adherence to the country you live in, I am not sure that the BSA accomodates that. It does raise an interesting question, at least indirectly; while the BSA does accomodate people and families of almost every political and ideological belief, is there a place in the BSA for someone who does not "sign on" to the very existence of the U.S.A. as a country? It's actually a question that never even occurred to me before, and I won't try to answer it now. But I do think that a Scoutmaster, in assessing Scout Spirit, may have a right to answer it in the negative.

 

The answer doesn't get much better when the "manifesto" is viewed as a religious belief. The BSA is set up pretty well to accomodate the beliefs of organized, recognized religions. If your beliefs, as taught by your faith, prohibit you from traveling on Friday night, prohibit you from eating certain foods, require you to be back home for services early Sunday morning, require you to take a brief "prayer break" from Scouting activities, all of these will be accomodated by the appropriate level of Scouting in a particular activity, if it is feasible to do so. (Somebody stop me if I'm wrong here, but I am pretty sure the preceding sentence is generally correct.) The most relevant example in this discussion is the religious refusal to take oaths or pledges in general -- including the Pledge of Allegiance, and requiring that the Scout Oath or Promise be taken specifically as a promise and not an oath. As I have said, the evidence strongly suggests that the BSA will accomodate this as well -- meaning that if this issue came up and you were a Quaker, and your local religious leader called your Scoutmaster and said, "I am the (whatever) of the local Society of Friends, Scout Johnny Jones is one of my flock, and I'd like to explain to you about our beliefs that prohibit the saying of the Pledge of Allegiance, I have a pamphlet I could send you..." and like that, I am fairly sure that the Scoutmaster would eventually back down, and if didn't, your parents could get council to step in.

 

Where you have a problem is when your religious belief is one held by you alone, or just your family or an exceptionally small group. I know that every religion starts somewhere, but that's where politics and religion begin to intersect. A cynic might say that a "cult" is just a new religion, and that a "mythology" is just a religion that has become extinct. (I can just envision some of the regular forum-ites having a stroke right about now, calm down guys. ) But the point is, you gotta understand, the BSA does have a limited capacity for accomodating individual religious beliefs when they come into conflict with things that Scouts are expected to do, one of which is saying the Pledge of Allegiance (at least to join.) Where is the limit of that capacity? Quite possibly, somewhere before the point where your Scoutmaster has to accept that your personal religious beliefs (unrelated to any more recognized belief regarding oaths) require you to renounce the Pledge of Allegiance and prohibit you from reciting it in a troop meeting.

(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)

[evmori]

NJ,

Since the separation of church & state is nowhere to be found in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution how can it go away?

 

No need to answer. Just being rhetorical. I couldn't resist!

 

Great post, by the way. The thing about this that is sticking in my craw is if jcfraz said the pledge as part of his joining requirement & who knows how many times since, then what's the problem now? I suppose it could be the recent court case. But if jcfraz is of a Christian denomination, Jewish, etc. that believes in God, then there shouldn't be any problem at all! And if there is, it seems that somewhere - either in Scouting or his religion - he is being hypocritical.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[evmori]

"So, Your Honor, the Pledge is unconstitutional because it says 'Under God'. Guess that means when you were sworn in with your hand on a Bible, and at the end of your oath repeated, 'So Help Me God' that makes your job unconstitutional , therefore you have no job, which means your ruling doesn't mean s***."

 

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Jcfraz]

In the reply you used the word "s***".

 

Wait , Mr. Mori. Whos got scout spirit: the person cussing, or the person who is just trying to stay in scouts without violating his convictions???

 

And to answer your question, I'm not refusing to say the pledge because I don't want to say "under God". Please read the article I posted entitled "one nation under God, indiviable", really.

[evmori]

jcfraz,

Where did I cuss? What I posted was a quote and I placed the stars to finish the word because I don't use that kind of language. Posting the entire word would not be in the spirit of Scouting.

 

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

 

Yes really. What other country can make that claim? None that I know of.

 

What religion are you? Does you religion believe in God? If so, then how can saying the pledge be against your religious beliefs?

 

I am confused. You said the pledge as you joining requirement, correct? What is the problem now? And is the problem yours or someone elses?

 

I am proud to be an American. I love this country. I feel saying the pledge my way of saying thanks to all the men & women who have fought and died defending my freedom.

 

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

 

You better believe it!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10