Call to Ban Morman married fathers

[rlculver415]

RE - the city ban on scouting: I can only tell you what my friends have told me. There has been no BSA in that city for the past 20 years or so. Understand this is a small town. It is not so hard to ban an organization if the city fathers e also have great influence with the potential charter organizations, and it was their sons who were molested I suspect. BSA is not there and Girl Scouts is. Period. No-one seems to have thought to contest this on constitutional grounds.

 

Secondly, while certain religions and people may consider homosexuality abhorrent and others not, this was not really the point. BSA has their policy in place. All private opinions aside, this is what governs us.

 

Finally, this is not the thread that was started. It is so off-track, belaboring religious practices and beliefs instead, I have to wonder in any other reader is beginning to get lost.

[Rooster7]

So, why is it acceptable for Rooster and BSA to believe some religions are abhorrent, but not acceptable for acco40 to believe the same? It's not, 'cause Scouting is "absolutely non-sectarian".

 

A couple of comments for clarification (since TJ has taken upon himself to illuminate my position) -

 

While I don't completely reject TJ's statement, I don't believe he can quote me as saying that I find a specific religion to be "abhorrent". That may be overstating it a bit (or notdepends). Regardless, what I truly find abhorrent are the deviate sexual acts that two men willing pursue and engage in together (or two women). As for religions that condone, or at least fail to condemn such activities, I believe that they are for the most part, deceived.

 

While BSA may claim to be "non-sectarian", they do not claim to be value neutral. BSA is certainly against murder and rape as well. So, why aren't folks claiming BSA to be a sectarian organization based on their positions against murder and rape? Regardless of why the founders and/or the current leadership believe homosexuality is wrong, it is their prerogative to determine the values of the organization. Just because TJ and others want to claim that their values were derived from the faiths of a select few, doesn't make it so. And even if his supposition is true, this fact does not make their stance wrong or immoral. As a private organization created and established in a free country, they have every right to define their own values. In summary, to answer TJ's question, it is acceptable for BSA to define homosexuality as abhorrent because it's their right to do so. As to why they choose to do so, it's simply a matter of them applying the values that they believe in. You can argue that they are religiously based, but your evidence to do so has no merit. As difficult as you may find this to believe, many folks can see the wrongness of homosexuality just as clearly as they see the wrongness of murder and rape.

 

As for my stance on evoking God's name when saying a prayer (which, despite TJ's claim, I have not expressed in this thread), I believe every boy in BSA should be free to practice their own faith as they see fit so long as it does not infringe upon others. As for my personal faith and practice, I believe when I say a generic prayer I am offending God. I do not believe in a generic God. I believe in the God of Abraham. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. When I evoke His name, I do so for myself, not others. Others are free to recognize whomever they want. If they want to insert the name of someone else as they pray, they are free to do so. From the world's standpoint, my prayer does not have any more power than anyone else's. Of course, as a Christian, I would debate the use and power of praying to false gods. Nevertheless, this is my personal belief, which I am not imposing on others. So, yesI believe every Scout should be able to pray to whomever he wants, whether that be in private or in front of a group.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[acco40]

"As for my personal faith and practice, I

believe when I say a generic prayer I am offending God."

 

Do you believe the Philmont Grace isoffensive to God?

[Rooster7]

What I believe is this...

 

If I feel prompted by the Holy Spirit to say, "In your Son's name, the Lord Jesus Christ", and I say the "Great Chief of all Scouts" instead, I have offended my Lord and Savior. If the cost of being non-offensive to others is to offend God, then I am not willing to pay that price. My faith tells me to put God above all others. I don't even like the phrase "my God", because it implies a lack of faith in Him. God is not my God or your God, God is God. I'm not going to water down that fact so that others can find my faith to be more palatable. As I said in my previous post, everyone is free to pray to the god of their choosing. If I recognize Christ by name that does not mean others must do the same.

 

If your faith does not prompt you to mention God by name, then I guess you cannot relate to what I'm saying. If your faith does prompt you to recognize God by name, then I think you should feel free to do so, regardless of when and where God prompts you to do so. Should I fear man (and his scorn) above God's?

 

[tjhammer]

Rooster -- I respect your zeal. I also respect your right to "evangelize" when you lead group prayers in your local unit, because I presume that the parents and CO have been well informed of your proclivity to do so and agree that they want their children to be exposed to you. (Presumably, all the parents and Scouts of your unit are of similar religions and beliefs; if not, they can always join the unit across town or start a new Scout troop.) I do not respect your right to evangelize beyond your local unit (ex: at a Camporee), because you clearly would be doing so without "knowing your audience" and it is not the role of a Scout leader to teach his religion to other people's kids. It is not the role of BSA to teach a specific religion over others, either.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[Rooster7]

Prayer is NOT evangelizing. Folks who are offended by someone else's prayer, simply because that person mentioned God by name, have a very weak faith indeed.

[tjhammer]

Rooster, you're right, most folks will not be offended and will also have the capacity to "filter" your message out. But can an eight year old boy? (This is at the heart of the SCOTUS rulings on prayer lead by principals in schools... SCOTUS is much more liberal in allowing religion to be broadcast to adults (ex: opening the legislative sessions with prayer) because they recognize adults have the ability to not be offended or swayed by simple religious expressions from others. SCOTUS believes it is unlikely for kids to have that same ability.

 

Leading a prayer, and adding specific elements of a specific religion, is evangelizing, when it is targeted toward young children in the absence of their parents and own religious leaders and done by a person of authority or respect (Scout leader Rooster).(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[littlebillie]

Rooster7

 

'If I feel prompted by the Holy Spirit to say, "In your Son's name, the Lord Jesus Christ", and I say the "Great Chief of all Scouts" instead, I have offended my Lord and Savior.'

 

 

well, that seems to suggest a) that yours would have to be the one single true faith, and that b) God as you know Him has no patience for religious tolerance, or even courtesy to other faiths..?

 

I'm asking a serious question, and not trying to be a smart aleck here, so please don't read it that way...

 

tjhammer seems right to me - at any multiple troop function, invoking Jesus would automatically EXCLUDE the Jewish kids, for example, and that doesn't seem right.

 

Rooster7, how would you feel if a Hindu leader invoked one of the Hindu trinity at a group prayer? You would happily grin and bear it, with love and understanding?

 

Just curious...

 

[Rooster7]

TJ,

 

If a boy is being brought up in a faith, I believe even an 8-year-old can understand the difference. If his parents are not providing him with a foundation, then I suppose the prayer may have some influence. Nevertheless, in Boy Scouts we are dealing with 11-year-olds and older, not 8-year-olds. Lastly, the boys themselves as opposed to the adult leaders offer the vast majority of these prayers.

 

"Freedom of Religion", does not mean freedom from religion (or as someone else on this forum put it, freedom from being exposed to Christianity). "Freedom of Religion" means each individual is free to pursue his own faith (or no faith at all). That does not mean, nor should it ever mean, individuals or groups cannot ever publicly expose their religion to other people. We are supposed to be a free market place for ideas. This includes religion. Furthermore, when we join an organization in this country, our right to express these ideas or thoughts are not suspended by default. Should an organization, such as BSA, edict that its members are not permitted to recognize God by name in public prayer, I will have to deal with such a policy. Until then, I maintain my rights as a citizen of this county, and more importantly my calling as a disciple of Jesus, to recognize Him without restraint.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[tjhammer]

littlebillie asks: Rooster7, how would you feel if a Hindu leader invoked one of the Hindu trinity at a group prayer? You would happily grin and bear it, with love and understanding?Actually, an even better question is how would you feel if that Hindu leader did so, regularly, in front of your eight year old Cub Scout that you sent off to Day Camp, and did so without your knowledge and permission?

 

[Rooster7]

Littlebillie,

 

'If I feel prompted by the Holy Spirit to say, "In your Son's name, the Lord Jesus Christ", and I say the "Great Chief of all Scouts" instead, I have offended my Lord and Savior.'

 

well, that seems to suggest a) that yours would have to be the one single true faith, and that b) God as you know Him has no patience for religious tolerance, or even courtesy to other faiths..?

 

In regard to "a", I believe that when I evoke Jesus' name, I am not preventing anyone from praying to the god of their choice. I have not hindered anyone's ability, including the 11-year-old Hindu from inserting the name of the god of his choice in that particular prayer. To my knowledge, I, nor any other Christian, has any secret powers of mind control. If you mean, that my personal conviction to evoke God's name implies that I believe there is only one God, then your assumption is correct.

 

In regard to "b", per my faith, that conclusion is also correct. God has no tolerance for faiths that do not recognize Him. It's called idolatry.

 

Rooster7, how would you feel if a Hindu leader invoked one of the Hindu trinity at a group prayer? You would happily grin and bear it, with love and understanding?

 

Would I be happy?

Not particularly.

 

Would I tolerant it as an expression of his faith?

Yes.

 

With "love?"

Maybe. Depends on how well I know that person, and what I know of him.

 

With "understanding?"

Yesthe same understanding that allows me to express my faith.

 

Would I evoke Jesus' name vice the Hindu trinity?

Yes.

 

Would I accept the parts of the prayer that were consistent with my faith?

Yes.

 

As I said, we have a Constitutional right to "Freedom of Religion"NOT "Freedom from Religion". This is a concept that many in our country have not quite grasped. Being a country that tolerates all faiths, does not mean eliminating all references to God. It means allowing all references to God.

[Rooster7]

Each of my three sons, at the age of eight, was capable of the same reasoning that I displayed in my previous posts. That being said, my children would have survived the "Hindu led" Day Camp with their faith in tact. If your eight-year-old could not, then I suggest the problem lies in your faith, or the practice there of, and not with the principle of religious freedom.

[acco40]

Rooster,

 

We are not arquing about your "rights", but more of consideration for others. For what ever reasons, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (Herbert Walker) and Clinton did not publicly invoke Jesus' name when reciting prayer, benedictions, etc. Bush (Dubya) did (does). Some have complained. Is he violating anyones rights? No. Does he have a responsibility to try to be inclusive (sometimes he represents the position or office of the President and not himself) and not use denominational references? Some, including myself, believe he does. When you wear the Scout uniform, remember that sometimes your represent Scouting, not Mr. Rooster, and Scouting does not recognize Christianity, Hinduism or any other religion as the one true way.

 

Your comment that prayer is not evangelizing (is that a word?, maybe prayer is not evangelical in nature) and that folks who are offended by someone else's prayer simply because that person mentioned God by name, have a very weak faith indeed is a rather crass comment. I've heard many Christians say they are offended by rap & rock lyrics. Is that because their faith is weak?

.

By the way, when you feel prompted to say "In your Son's name, the Lord Jesus Christ" how do you know the Holy Spirit did the prompting? Were you prompted by the Holy ghost 20 years ago? And why do you feel the need to SAY anything verbally? God has very good listening powers. You do not need to petition the Lord with VERBAL prayer.

[Rooster7]

Acco40,

 

We are not arguing about your "rights", but more of consideration for others. For whatever reasons, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (Herbert Walker) and Clinton did not publicly invoke Jesus' name when reciting prayer, benedictions, etc. Bush (Dubya) did (does). Some have complained. Is he violating any ones rights? No. Does he have a responsibility to try to be inclusive (sometimes he represents the position or office of the President and not himself) and not use denominational references? Some, including myself, believe he does.

 

I don't think he's being exclusive when he says Jesus' name. He's simply living his faith. He didn't give that up when he became President. As for those that feel excluded, I think they need to tend to their own faith. Election to public office does require one to subscribe to Universalism. Nor should it be expected. Mr. Bush's prayers should come from his heart and be guided by his own personal duty to God. Public policy should be guided by his duty to the office of the Presidency.

 

When you wear the Scout uniform, remember that sometimes your represent Scouting, not Mr. Rooster, and Scouting does not recognize Christianity, Hinduism or any other religion as the one true way.

 

I don't stop being Mr. Rooster either. Furthermore, I see the inverse of your statement. Scouting recognizes all major faiths, including Christianity, Hinduism, etc. Yes, I see Christ as the one and only way. Yet, BSA doesn't punish me for my beliefs. If/When I close a prayer in Jesus name, I'm not lecturing anyone on theology. I'm simply recognizing my Lord and Savior. Which by the way, per my faith, is part of fulfilling my duty to God. To a large extent, and regardless of what you may believe, if I don't close my prayer in His name, I am contradicting the Boy Scout Oath.

 

Your comment that prayer is not evangelizing (is that a word?, maybe prayer is not evangelical in nature) and that folks who are offended by someone else's prayer simply because that person mentioned God by name, have a very weak faith indeed is a rather crass comment.

 

I don't think it was crass, but I do think it's true. If we (as Scouters) are raising our children to have a strong faith, they should be able to survive the closing acknowledgment of a prayer. Furthermore, if tolerance is not merely a battle cry for the politically correct, then our children will understand why others (adults and other children) need to acknowledge the God of their faith. If not, then maybe we need to teach more tolerance.

 

I've heard many Christians say they are offended by rap & rock lyrics. Is that because their faith is weak?

 

Okayso now you're comparing the filth in various rap songs (including lyrics that glorify rape and other acts of violence) to someone saying a prayer and acknowledge God by name. You want me to explain the difference? Hmmm. I'm stunned. I just don't know what to say to such a comparison. Let's try thisI am tolerant of being exposed to religions different from my own because - I understand the desires by people to recognize, honor, and love God, even if I may disagree with their beliefs. I expect the same understanding from others. I am not tolerant of offensive rap music because - I do not respect people who, among other things, celebrate the rape of women and violence against police officers. Nor do I understand the desire to spew profanity across the public airways. Do you see this subtle difference?

.

By the way, when you feel prompted to say "In your Son's name, the Lord Jesus Christ" how do you know the Holy Spirit did the prompting?

 

Well, I guess you're not of my faith, so you wouldn't understand. How can I explain being born again and being guided by the Holy Spirit? I don't think it is possible. It is a spiritual experience that cannot be adequate described with mere words. Nevertheless, there is at least one test that can be done. That is to take the "prompting" and test it against the scriptures. Trust me, there is plenty of scripture that instructs Christians to acknowledge God before men.

 

Were you prompted by the Holy ghost 20 years ago?

 

Not sure what this question means. What happen 20 years ago?

 

And why do you feel the need to SAY anything verbally? God has very good listening powers. You do not need to petition the Lord with VERBAL prayer.

 

No, there is nothing that says a prayer has to be verbalized. On the other hand, if I'm asked to say a prayer, such as a prayer for protection as the troop travels, I will pray as God directs me.

 

Just to acknowledge rlculver415yes, this thread has wandered off track. However, I'm not sure a thread entitled - "Call to Ban Morman married fathers", ever had a clear topic of discussion. For the record, I'm against the ban.

 

[NJCubScouter]

If we are talking about prayers at a Scouting function (camp, awards dinner, whatever), where a person is giving a spoken prayer in front of a group or leading the group in prayer, I think common sense and courtesy dictate the content. There is no rule that I know of against the leader giving a prayer specific to his religion, and I am not worried so much about a boy being evangelized by a single prayer. However, I think the general understanding within Scouting is that a group prayer should be inclusive rather than exclusive. If you are asked to perform such a function, you are not being asked to do it for your own benefit or as part of your own individual relationship with God, but for the benefit of the group. The needs of the group should therefore be taken into consideration. In such a situation, I would want everyone to feel included and comfortable. I think God would be happy with that.

 

Rooster, if you feel that leading an inclusive prayer would offend God, then the place for you is probably in the "congregation," and not up at the podium. When the leader is finished, you can add whatever you want to yourself, as I am sure you do anyway.

 

 

And yes, this thread sort of became a hodgepodge of stuff. The title was obviously intended to be a humorous, sarcastic comment anyway, so the thread never really had much of a sense of direction to begin with.