Call to Ban Morman married fathers

[acco40]

Rooster & little Billie, if the boy in question asks you questions about his sexuality as the example so states the BSA policy is THAT YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COUNCIL HIM! They suggest that you recommend and or refer the boy to professionals (regardless if you agree with their advice or not.)

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

Your advice may be correct (per BSA) and even well intended, but it's not really addressing my question, which was -

 

"I know what most Scouters would say. I know what the best answer is, legally. If that was my only concern, I could easily answer my own question. However, I'm more concerned about what God would say."

 

Now, I am little curious about your reply. Could you point me to the BSA manual and the specific page which reflects your statement - if the boy in question asks you questions about his sexuality as the example so states the BSA policy is THAT YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COUNCIL HIM!

 

Your statement may well echo BSA policy, but I've never heard it stated this way before. It seems to be a little rigid since it does not take into account whether the parents have given their permission and/or the qualifications of that particular leader.

 

[acco40]

From The Scoutmaster Handbook:

 

Scoutmasters must keep in mind that boys should learn about sex from their parents, guardians, or others empowered by their families to guide them. No Scoutmaster should undertake to teach Scouts, in any formalized manner, about sexual behavior. If a Scout comes to you with questions of a sexual nature, answer them as honestly as you can and, whenever it is appropriate, encourage him to share his concerns with his parents or guardian, spriitual leader, or a medical expert.

 

My interpretation of the above is that if a boy came to me and asked such questions as is premarital sex wrong I would not give him a yes or no answer but tell him that that is a question he should investigate with parents, doctors, spiritual leaders, etc. If he persisted in asking what my specific feelings were I would "vanillize" my response the best I could. I don't view the BSA as a forum to advance my personal beliefs.

[Rooster7]

acco40,

 

With all due respect, the reference from the Scoutmasters Handbook in your second post is very different from your interpretation in your first post.

 

First Post:

 

If the boy in question asks you questions about his sexuality as the example so states the BSA policy is THAT YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COUNCIL HIM!

 

Second Post:

 

If a Scout comes to you with questions of a sexual nature, answer them as honestly as you can and, whenever it is appropriate, encourage him to share his concerns with his parents or guardian, spiritual leader, or a medical expert.

 

I hope you do see that there is a significant difference. While they may not directly contradict one another, one does not give birth to the other. The Scoutmasters Handbook gives much more latitude than what you originally implied in your first post.

 

As for advancing personal agendasthat's a loaded statement. BSA is a character building organization. The Scoutmaster is supposed to reflect the values of BSA and the chartering organization. One can hardly call itself a character building organization without making some value judgments. Furthermore, the freedoms given to chartering organizations such as the LDS churches are not exceptions. Every chartering organization, so long as they do not directly oppose BSA policies, has the right and freedom to tailor a program that reflects and emphasizes their values.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[littlebillie]

"Every chartering organization, so long as they do not directly oppose BSA policies, has the right and freedom to tailor a program that reflects and

emphasizes their values."

 

Rooster,

 

What's a policy, in your definition? As far as written practice, rules, or documented instruments go, I mean?

 

One of the problems some of us on the knee-jerk liberal side of the fence :-) have is that since it ain't writ down, there's a certain arbitrary nature to it that just doesn't seem right.

 

You can say "we don't want gays" in a couple of letters in the 70's, but never put it on an application form or in a handbook, or amend the charter - so is that a real policy?

 

If so - see, this can be nasty. If the Executive board suddenly issues a statement saying, we don't want polytheists- well, i'm guessing they're within their legal rights to do so. And with this, since the line reads "God and my country", there seems to be real documentation. And the lack of solid documentation makes shifts like this do-able. Very unsettling to consider, from my position.

 

 

Anyway - basic question, what do you consider a "policy" and should it be written down in applications, handbooks, etc, really spelled out and explicit?

 

 

Just curious...

[acco40]

Hey Rooster, I think we are in agreement here. I said I would not use the BSA as a forum to advance MY views. I happen to believe eating meat is an okay idea. However, I don't take advantage of my position in the BSA to promote that view and respect others who do not. You are on thin ice when you try to mix "character" and "values." It takes character to stick up for ones values, regardless of the value in question. I have a belief in Jesus but I abhor when Scouters invoke Jesus' name during grace because I believe it shows an ignorance to others at best and arrogance and disrespect to others at worst. Nondenominational "stuff" works just as well and reinforces the BSA policy (a scout is reverent). Just like admonishing someone to remove their hat for grace, it is in poor taste. Stick to your own beliefs and try to be considerate (should I use the terms COURTEOUS & KIND?).

 

The statement "No Scoutmaster should undertake to teach Scouts, in any formalized manner, about sexual behavior." says to me to not "moralize" sexual behavior to the boys one way or the other if possible. I would probably direct them to their parent(s) or doctor or may even show them what it says in the Scoutmaster Handbook. But, I would not try to pass on my values on the subject to the boy assuming health and safety were not an immediate issue.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Quixote]

Acco40,

 

you pointed out to Rooster I have a belief in Jesus but I abhor when Scouters invoke Jesus' name during grace because I believe it shows an ignorance to others at best and arrogance and disrespect to others at worst. Nondenominational "stuff" works just as well and reinforces the BSA policy (a scout is reverent). Just like admonishing someone to remove their hat for grace, it is in poor taste. Stick to your own beliefs and try to be considerate (should I use the terms COURTEOUS & KIND?)

 

You have a belief in Jesus but abhor scouters invoking His name? Are you serious? It seems to me that this attitude could use a little courteousness and kindness as well as respect for others' religious views - or is it just Christians that have to deny their faith?

 

Quixote

[acco40]

I abhor using denominational specific prayer in nondenominational group settings, something our President obviously disagrees with. I feel no need to wear my religious beliefs on my sleeve.

 

Actually, my real preference would not be to have someone lead the troop, patrol, camp, staff, or whatever in grace/prayer but to set a side a brief time to allow each person to pray/reflect on their own. I see no need to vocalize my prayer. God has very good ears.

[littlebillie]

I like to begin any group grace or invocation with the words"Oh, Thou, Shepherd of Many Flocks..." and while strictly speaking I suppose the Singular Shepherd may possibly be deemed exclusionary of polytheists, I stand ready with the argument that even polytheist religions have one deity that's most apporpriate to the moment - but so far, I haven't had to use it! :-)

[Quixote]

Acco,

 

I have no problem with using nondenominational blessings and having nondenominational services - remember that most of the chartering organizations are religious institutions and that allowing time and facilities for religious services is part of the program. I believe it fosters understanding and tolerance for other religious views.

 

My problem stems from the attitude that any particular religion is abhorant or the practice of it is abhorant - this attitude unchecked could come across to the scouts and foster bigotry and hatred for other religios views. Maybe a more accepting attitude would work better.

 

As far as my particular faith goes, i would much rather be in the church of Philadelphia than in the chruch of Laodicea.

 

Peace

Quixote

[rlculver415]

I have to agree with Quixote here. BSA is not so much nondenominational as all-denominational. Therefore all religious beliefs must be respected by all scouts and scouters, and the practice of these beliefs should never viewed as abhorrent. Seems to me that in recent times the "freedom of religion" promised to Americans has been incorrectly translated as "freedom from Christianity". This is dismaying. Christian beliefs founded this country, and those beliefs deserve the same tolerance and respect as any other.

 

Another, admittedly minor, point: removing your hat before saying grace, or being inside a house of worship is not a religious practice. It is a demostration of good manners. Read Emily Post.

 

Finally, this thread has really gotten off track. The subject was pedophilia, I thought. What can BSA do to prevent a repeat of this? My "nephew" (17-yr-old son of really close friends) never got to be part of scouting because of city of Branford, FL banned the program after a similar incident there. This was 20 or more years ago. It is still banned to this day. So you see, this is not a new problem.

[Rooster7]

My "nephew" (17-yr-old son of really close friends) never got to be part of scouting because of city of Branford, FL banned the program after a similar incident there.

 

rlculver415,

 

I'm certain that there is something missing from your statement. No city government has the authority to ban private citizens from joining a youth group such as BSA. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding. On appearances, you seem to be indicating that the Florida city outlawed BSA as an organization. Obviously this cannot be true. An organization cannot be found guilty by association.

 

I whole-heartily agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Rooster7]

BTW, if what you said were true and legal, then the Klan would have been banned out of existence years ago. This has not happened because it would violate the Constitution. People have a right to join whatever organization they so chose (as long as its chartered activities are legal)...freedom of association. The fact that the organization has fallen victim to pedophiles is moot. The organization does not endorse pedophilia. BSA is a victim, not a perpetrator.

[acco40]

Tolerance is an often debated subject. Rooster & Culver, maybe I should not have used the term "abhor", I was just trying to make a point. I did not mean that I found a religion or religious practice abhorant (reread my post please). What I do not like is people that are not sensitive to others. Would be in good taste to try and celebrate mass at chapel at scout camp and offer all the boys a host (wafer)? Obviously not. Does that mean that I find that religious practice or religion (Catholicism) abhorant? Of course not.

 

Removing one's hat before grace or inside a house of worship is good etiquette to SOME. It is forbidden by SOME too due to their religious teachings. Emily Post (and Miss Manners) would also tell you that while removing one's hat may be in good taste it is definately in bad taste to point out to someone that they did not remove their hat.

 

And thus this forum topic strays some more ...(This message has been edited by acco40)

[tjhammer]

Why is it acceptable for Rooster and BSA to believe some religions are abhorent, but not acceptable for acco40 to believe the same?

 

Rooster and BSA believe that all of the religions who don't share a belief that homosexuals are immoral are abhorent religions, and seek to ban them from propagating this belief in their local chartered units (actually, de facto force them to teach Scouts the opposite). This they believe is acceptable, but when another Scouter suggests that it's abhorent to lead group prayer by emphasizing a specific religion... all hell breaks loose (pun intended).

 

So, why is it acceptable for Rooster and BSA to believe some religions are abhorent, but not acceptable for acco40 to believe the same? It's not, 'cause Scouting is "absolutely non-sectarian". Sorta.