Bob White Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 It's not blind obedience if you understand and accept the reasoning behind the rule. The majority of scouts and scouters do. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaBear Posted July 4, 2002 Author Share Posted July 4, 2002 C'mon Bob White, step up to the plate...don't skirt this issue...are you going to help me lead the way or not? Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 4, 2002 Share Posted July 4, 2002 Bob, What if the reasoning behind the rule is flawed and you do nothing to try to change it? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Happy 4th of July Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Bob White said: When you stop to think about it, scoutings doors are far more open than most other youth activities and as open as any get. This is just false; I wouldn't agree with a youth group that excluded Jews that claimed they were "far more open than most other youth activities and as open as any get", and I'm certainly not going to agree with your characterization. I think you're just doing this to avoid facing the BSA's discrimination. The BSA is a religiously discriminatory organization, just like a youth group that excludes Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Merlyn, Not discriminitory. Just excerising their rights afforded by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebillie Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 "Not discriminitory. Just excerising their rights afforded by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. " ...ummm, these are not mutually exclusive. as stated above, it's really the same umbrella that covers the KKK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaBear Posted July 5, 2002 Author Share Posted July 5, 2002 People, I can no longer, in good faith, debate this issue over the internet. I have made the arguments I felt pertinent to the issues at hand. This thing will go on ad nauseum unless you have the strength of mind to stop doing so yourselves. If you are true leaders, you will walk away too...and "No", I will not come back under a new name. It's been interesting! Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Bubba buddy, dont take it too hard. Your last post there sounds like you have a lot of frustration over this issue. To ease those feelings, I have some rhetorical questions for you; Do you think there are words and arguments that could ever be made that would allow Rooster and Ed, and Bob White amoung others to accept a compromise that would allow some gays in scouts? Or for that matter words and arguments that would make TJ and littlebillie et al to agree to keep the ban on homosexuals? Will Merlyn Leroy ever see an argument that will stop his unrelenting campaign to push all mention of God, gods, etc away from anything in the least bit public supported? Actually, at this point, if any of these people ever responded to a posting against their stated view point by saying "... Gee, I never thought of it that way, you are right, Gays should/should not be in Boy Scouts I was wrong..." I think I would lose all respect for them. Its not a failing on your part or words, it just is what it is, a difference of opinion on which there is no compromise. History may prove BSA wrong, or it may prove BSA right, but it will take about a 100 years to find out, maybe then we can get a Scouter Forum Alumni Reunion Party in heaven together to talk about how it all worked out. In the words of John Kay from Steppenwolf, "... And until then, live the best that you can..." Its a wish I have for all my Scouter forum buddies and "mates" (thats for you ozemu) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Bubba, Don't leave! There are many issues brought up on this board that Rooster, OGE and I have very strong felleings about and we air them. We don't always agree but we respect each others right to voice their opinions. A true leader doesn't back down form conflict or debate. A true leader knows when enough has been said & realizes it's time to stop. Bubba, I consider you a true leader. Leaving the board all together would be a great disservice to all who post here. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaBear Posted July 5, 2002 Author Share Posted July 5, 2002 OleGreyEagle and Ed...You wouldn't beleive this but just yesterday I was singing John Kays words to "Power Play"..."What gives you the right,HEY YOU, to stand there and tell me what to do? What gives you the power, to stop me from living like I do? Remember if you plan to stay, those that give can take away. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!" I am not taking anything very hard. Ironically, I found some solice in Bob White's words. It is BSA's right, given by the Supreme Court of this land I love, to stand for what they do...and I believe and respect that. What I am saying at this point is: "I have said all I can, and wish to." Anything else will only be subjective and lend no support to anything in this argument. I was trying to be objective about this topic. Would I expect Bob White or Rooster to leave because I am challenging them to? Not reallly. I am intelligent enough to know that they or TJ or anyone in this particular forum has an unwaiverable point of view and will not or cannot back down for their particular reasons. I would like to say that I respect that, but I don't. What I respect is peace. In other causes I would be willing to "fight to the death", but as littlebillie said, there are no winners in an argument of this nature. WE ALL LOSE...and the ones I am concerned about are the boys. I believe that in order for the boys to be effective future leaders, they will have to be able to get past their own gut feelings (as Abraham Lincoln did) and make decisions that are effectively like "hog grease in the gears of time". Anyone that can't understand what I am trying to say is simply not on the same wavelength as I am (in my case I think it is AM ) I am NOT leaving the forum all together, I just will not debate THIS topic anymore. You will likely find me in another area of the forum, time and again. There is no one that I do not learn from...I may not always hear what I want but I learn in the listening to those words. I hope you all can see that I am not leaving on a sour note, I ain't. (gotta sound Southern now and then) My e-mail is : jakel@nut-n-but.net Drop me a note if ya want to chat. A true leader (as MY Scoutmaster tells me), remembers the difference between 1) Retreat, 2)Tactical Withdrawl, and 3)Retrograde Operation. One last thought (my Scoutmaster, REDDOG Maynard passed this along along also, a quote of unkinow origion): Be careful of your thoughts, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful of your words, for your words become your actions. Be careful of your actions, for your actions become your habits. Be careful of your habits, for your habits become your character. Be careful of your character, for your character becomes you destiny. Sounds like a good Scoutmaster minute to me! In his words... See ya on the trail! Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 bubba, That would make an excellent Scoutmaster Minute. Would it be OK with you if I took this to summer camp with me & use it there? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaBear Posted July 5, 2002 Author Share Posted July 5, 2002 I would be proud if you would, Ed. Many scouters down here, look to REDDOG as another Green Bar Bill. Please give REDDOG credit for passing that one along. I've adopted him as my mentor and Scoutmaster. Appreciatively YIS, Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 BubbaBear, I have observed that different people can stand to debate this subject for different lengths of time. If you only had a few weeks in you, I hope you don't begreduge those of us who prefer to keep batting it back and forth for a longer period. In my case, I did get tired of the first forum on which I was debating this issue (for about a year, in AOL's Scouting forum), so I switched to this one. Changing the minds of the people on the other side is not the main goal; as you say, that is probably impossible. But there are dozens or hundreds of "lurkers" out there at any given time, whose minds may not have been made up so solidly as ours. And maybe some of us find it fun, in some odd way. Posting in this forum is recreation for me. There are worse things I could do in my spare time. Unfortunately, I too will probably stop posting on this subject in the near future. The time required by my "real life" often prevents me from posting for a day or 2, and by that time so much material has gone by that I want to respond to, that I cannot possibly respond to it. And it does get tiresome to keep repeating things I have said in the past, in response to the same things said by the same people. And I am about to take on a new time-consuming challenge in my life, as I expect to be appointed this coming week to a vacancy on my local school board. That may be the thing that forces me to stop spending time doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaBear Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 NJCubScouter- Local School Board???.....NOW we have something to worry about!!...ONLY KIDDING! Godd Luck my friend! (Freudian Slip??) By the way, to understand the "Passing the Knot", read Roberts Rules of Order under "Passing the Gavel". Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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