Compromise: Good or Evil

[BubbaBear]

I spent about twenty minutes writing my premise for this argument and wiped it out in one second!!

 

Let me try again...

 

I have argued that compromise should be used in this issue of homosexuals in Scouting. Bob White strongly disagrees with me saying that not all things in life are open to compromise...okay here it goes...

 

I am not implying that all things are open to compromise, I believe everything IS. In actuality, what I am proposing is States Rights versus Federal Mandate.

 

Let's use your example of marriage, Bob White:

If your wife says to you "OK Bob White, get dressed, we are going to (somewhere you really don't like)", are you going to say to her "Ain't no way!". I give you compromise in a marriage; you will go with her because 1) you really know the meaning of love, 2)you know what is good for you, 3)you respect her wishes, or 4)you signed a pre-nuptual agreement saying each of you would abide to the directions of your spouce.

 

In the issue of morality in marriage (I take it as fidelity), just how many marriages end in divorce over participation in the Scouting movement? How many times have you witnessed or heard of indescretions between two leaders in your district. We have a case here where a scouter has been charged with attempted murder of her spouce relating to her infidelity. So these types of imoralities are OK for Scouting?

 

What I object to is hypocrisy. In my faith, Jesus was the only perfect person. God knows that even religious leaders (of all faiths) are practicing immoral behavior daily. What I am saying is "if you are without immorality (and look at it very closely, there are many immoralities), then go ahead and throw those stones.

 

By the way, IF you are one who qualifies to throw those stones, let me know so I can stay away from you!

 

I have sat by many a campfire. Once in a while I get tired and just drench it. Most of the time I watch it until it burns itself out.

 

As a side note: I am former military. If you are too, than you know what immorality can really mean as it applies to one group imposing their idea on another.

 

Think about this parallel idea: Even religious groups trying to impose their form of belief on others are toying with the concept of

dictatorship. Just a thought, not an implication.

 

YIS,

Jake

 

[evmori]

Homosexual men and women have no place in Scouting. I repeat homosexual men and women have no place in Scouting. To me, there can be no compromise.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[BubbaBear]

Geeze Ed, were those stones I detected?

 

I don't think I ever said that I WANTED homosexuals in Scouting, but then again I don't want alchoholics, theives or a vast array of others in Scouting either.

 

What I have been saying right along is that I believe it should be up to the CO's to make that decision.

 

I made a mistake by starting this thread...I really intended to "Pass the Knot" but was lured into another argument that led back here. I will post my final statements about this topic on the "Pass the Knot" thread after some more people have passed it.

 

Please understand that in not responding to this anymore, I am only silently stating that I believe that all that is to be said on the topic, has been.

 

Sorry if I struck a nerve with the "H" word Ed, I don't believe you are one.

 

"Oh, I used to be a Bear, a good ole Bear too.

And now that I'm done Bearin', I don't know what to do. I'm growin' old and weary, and I can't Bear no more, so I'm goin' to work my ticket if I can!"

 

(No I ain't runnin' off!)

[KoreaScouter]

Allowing COs or even councils to set their own policy regarding this would turn into a real briar patch. Here's why: A CO allowing their troop committee to "hire" gay leaders because it doesn't conflict with the moral beliefs of their families (assuming BSA permitted it) implies that such a decision has no consequence outside the troop. This is simply false, unless that troop participates in no district, council, regional, or national events.

 

How many of you have taken your troop to a camporee or other district-or-higher-level event in which every leader available wasn't pressed into service running a station, counseling a badge, leading a hike, supervising Safe Swim Defense, etc.? And, we leaders "consign" our Scouts to these leaders from other units because we know there is a single standard. I think you get my point. At a multi-unit event, how would the church-chartered troop reconcile their beliefs to consign their Scouts to walk the nature trail with the gay leader from the community center-chartered troop? Answer: they probably wouldn't...if they knew the leader was gay. Will they know? Maybe not, but the fact that a certain troop's CO allows gay leaders will not be a secret, and then you're reduced to suspicion and "only his hairdresser knows for sure". Either way, not acceptable.

 

In a curious way, I think the "states' rights" analogy works, in this sense. When two states have laws (councils have policies) that conflict with each other, the U.S. Supreme Court resolves it (BSA National policy prevails)...whaddya think?

[BubbaBear]

KoreaScouter...

Hey! Did you get to see any of the World Cup in person?? Golly, I would have liked to have been there...at least for that!

 

Sorry, I've decided not to "Beat Secretariat" as one of the boys said...so I will not comment on the gay issue. (oops! I just did!)

 

As far as the last paragraph of your post,I am not sure that your anology is right...the BSA would be more like the federal government in real sense if the councils were like the states.

 

Getting back to the theme of this post...do you think compromise is good or not. Some of the folks in this forum are stern on their opinions (to which they have the right to their opinions). Is this an issue there can be no compromise on.

 

I think that your post offered some insight into what noone else has alluded to so far...

[evmori]

bubba,

Yeah you did strike a nerve & I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to.

 

I don't feel you can let the CO decide. This would lead to utter chaos! Imagine, on CO thinks gays are OK as leaders & another wants nothing but women. Where does it end!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[tjhammer]

KoreaScouter

 

You raise a point worthy of response... in fact, it's the only legitimate point raised so far by those that oppose making this a decision for local chartering orgs and parents.

 

It should come as no surprise that I disagree with your assessment. Here's why:

 

Obviously BSA does not have child safety concerns (letting units with gay leaders attend district camporees does not endanger Scouts of any unit). So really the only concern left is whether the mere presence of gay Scouts and leaders at a camporee sends the wrong signals to Scouts in your unit. If the parents of your unit wish to believe that homosexuality is immoral, they are free to instruct their children as such.

 

Surely you realize that there are already gay Scouts and Scouters at your district camporee, and most likely have been at nearly every camporee you have ever been to. Because sexuality doesn't have a place in Scouting, you've not noticed, nor would you in the future.

 

You are certainly welcome to believe that gay Scouts and Scouters are immoral and not worthy of membership in your unit. I wonder though, do you really also believe that they're unworthy of lifeguarding a safe swim defense? Teaching a merit badge on pioneering? Going on a nature hike with other boys? Do you really have such a low opinion of homosexuals that you believe it's better for a heterosexual (all else being equal) to teach first aid to your Scouts?

 

[tjhammer]

Imagine, one CO thinks gays are OK as leaders & another wants nothing but women.And another unit says no women leaders allowed, and another says they want all of their leaders to be Catholic. And one CO decides to change the age for Cub Scouts. Golly, absolute madness! You're right Ed, it's just plum craziness to think these things can be decided by the parents at the local level. How in the world would we ever teach B-P's jolly game of character building to our own Scouts? Utter chaos!

[BubbaBear]

Ed...I do not take offense when friends criticise me...how else would I grow?

 

I do not have the definitive answer to anything in life. I thought I did when I was younger. I won't know all the answers until I am standing in judgement by the Almighty.

 

In the meantime, I prefer to go with what I believe is the American way...majority rules...or at least that is how I perceive it should be.

 

Noone in this forum has shown me a solid argument on either side of the issue. I will follow what the rules are, I always have.

 

And so...what's on the spit?

[NJCubScouter]

KoreaScouter says:

 

Allowing COs or even councils to set their own policy regarding this would turn into a real briar patch.

 

As opposed to what the BSA is in now, you mean? Wherever a "briar patch" may fall on the scale of good-to-bad, I would say that where the BSA is now is worse. Maybe then Scouting could again be mostly known for what we are trying to accomplish, and not for needless controversies, lawsuits and funding disputes.

 

Local option would work if people want to make it work. You have no need to ask the sexual orientation of the Scoutmaster from the next town who happens to be running the orienteering station at the next camporee. Maybe his troop knows he's gay and doesn't care. It's really none of your business. And the vast majority of units that have a non-discrimination policy would not have gay leaders anyway. So it wouldn't be a problem. It's just an excuse that some people use for keeping the current noncompromising, counterproductive policy. (Oh, and it's not actually even a policy, it's just a bunch of press releases.)

[BubbaBear]

tjhammer and NJCubScouter-

 

With all do respect, I am trying very hard to keep to the subject at hand, that being "compromise".

 

You two are intelligent enough to realize that this homosexual debate will not determine national policy and that all can be accomplished in the continuance in this forum is the further allienation of both sides.

 

Please keep your remarks generalized here (I am asking).

 

Thanks

[Quixote]

Bubba,

 

I think for a lot of people the question essentially boils down to:

 

"Are you willing to compromise your values or morals?"

 

I know for me, the answer is no.

[BubbaBear]

Thank you, Quiote...

 

I, too, believe that is what it boils down to.

 

The question remains; in any issue of this nature, shouldn't the majority rule? And if the majority does rule, should the deciision stand for eternity or (like the ERA) wait in the wings of society?

[OldGreyEagle]

If the majority rules, what happens to indvidual rights? What happens when the majority changes, what then, are laws set aside because we dont like anymore?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[tjhammer]

Quixote --

 

That really isn't the essential question. Much as our opinions of the underlying issue differ, so too does our perspective on the actual question at hand.

 

You choose to summarize the question as "Are you willing to compromise your values or morals?"... that's entirely unfair. That is maybe the question you feel like is being asked of you, but it is certainly not the question being asked of me. Or even the question that is being asked of the BSA.

 

In fact, I view the question being debated right now as "Can you accept that people with slightly different moral standards than your own can participate in Scouting without effecting you?" I can answer that question with a resounding yes. Can you?

 

It's interesting how we can't even agree on a wording for what the question is that we are debating.

 

I don't care what your moral standards are, and I wouldn't dream of asking you to change them. I just don't want you to hold our (yours and mine) organization (BSA) up to a standard that significant portions of its chartering partners, members and parents disagree with.

(This message has been edited by tjhammer)