John-in-KC Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 Ed, on this one I agree with you. God is. The bright line of right and wrong is. Those are eternal. Our perceptions of those are temporal. And yet, Jesus laid it all out... B hit part of it above, I hope he won't object if I quote both the OT and NT verses: From Deuteronomy 6 (NIV): 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Then, from Mark 12: 8 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." One of the things I've observed now across a few years is God does keep correcting his people, and He does keep working to correct error in this life. In the meantime, our task is to listen, learn, love and act. Happy Thanksgiving 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 Another duplicate post. If OGE, you or E or FScouter see this, zap it pls.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy ona cliff Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 As for me I try to stick to the basics of morality as defined by love of God and love of one another. However since people come in many varieties of personality types, some will desire complicated diagrams and some who are simple minded types like myself try to interpret as we go. When I ponder what it means to love God I must consider what path of travel is just and kind. When I ponder love for another, not only must I consider what action shows love, but who I include as the other, be it my next door neighbor, Washoe the chimpanzee or the turkey that is now in my oven. One thing that I enjoy about scouting is the variety of people, some with whom I can not agree, but unlike many religious groups we can gather around a common table to raise a cup of bug juice or a Nalgene bottle of iodine water to BP with our thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 Gold Winger Im not understanding your positions here. You responded to a post of mine with "Do you actually think right and wrong change or is it just our reaction to the action." (my original words) Right and wrong are only our reactions to something. Right and wrong are really human constructs, a lion doesn't ask if it is right before he eats the eland. (your response) " So Gold Winger you don't see certain actions as right or wrong in and of themselves? Murder, rape,stuff like that." (my original words) Nope. We decided that they were bad long, long ago and most go along with it. Obviously some don't agree or the police wouldn't have so much work.(your response) Are you saying the murder and rape are not actually wrong? That the reality is that we as a society just have decided they were wrong and most people go along with it? LH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 "Are you saying the murder and rape are not actually wrong? That the reality is that we as a society just have decided they were wrong and most people go along with it?" Yep. Some societies think that blowing your nose in public is wrong but farting is okay. I happen to think that murder and rape are wrong but both nose blowing and farting in public are fine. Had I been raised diffferently, I'd probably think differently. The fact that people had to write it down in a book to make it stick means that it wasn't universally accepted. "Daddy, why shouldn't you kill that guy that bumped into you?" "Because the Creator said so, let me tell you a story about the first person who killed another, his name was Cain . . ." I can imagine a meeting of a pre-historic village. "Moog, the knife maker was killed by Jord the Hunter." "Why?" "Moog wanted six beaver pelts for a new flint knife and Jord only had four." "So, what's the big deal? They fought and Moog lost." "Now we don't have a knife maker" "Hey! What if we say you just can't kill people because you don't like what they did?" "Okay!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 So but that logic the rape camps in Bosnia were right. Those who controlled the physical surrounding geographic area felt those camps were right and served a purpose so therefore they were right? The concentration camps in Europe, the killing fields of Cambodia, what is happening today in Darfur from a stand point of "right" and "wrong" these things were right? LH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 I see that you're having trouble with the concept that right and wrong are only what you believe. A hungry man doesn't believe that it is wrong to steal food but the farmer does. Since we have been raised certain criteria for right and wrong, most of us agree and make rules accordingly. Why is coveting your neighbor's possessions up there with murder in the 10 C's? Probably because back then, coveting lead to clobbering or theft. Is coveting wrong? It is usually counterproductive but wrong? Right and wrong change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongHaul Posted November 22, 2007 Share Posted November 22, 2007 Gold Winger you open your post with the premis that right and wrong are dependant on personal belief alone and close youpost with a question as to whether coveting is actually wrong. Given you original premis of the post why ask anyone about coveting except yourself? Your last question, if indeed it was a question and not mearly a thought out loud, indicates that you understand full well the context in which right and wrong were being discussed in this thread. Play fair or don't play. LH Ed sorry for the delay I've been pre occupied, I agree witih your position but have to ask. Now this is for Ed Gold Winger, do you realy think peoples perceptions of right and wrong change or is it their williness do do something which they know to be wrong that changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 Stealing is wrong regardless of the reason. Good question LH. I think it's the same. As they say, perception is reality! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 Yah, I think there's three levels of understandin' Childish Belief in simplistic rules from mom & dad (or other Authority). Bible=literal rulebook. Adolescent Recognition that the simplistic rules are sometimes stupid, and that mom & dad are fallible. Rebellion against all rules/external Authority. Bible=same as any other book, but I like (Marx, Bohr, etc.) Adult Understandin' that there are underlyin' rules/principles, but they're not simplistic. They're challenging and subtle and not easily written down. Finding truth is hard, but it is possible to identify error. Bible=touchstone and guidebook, with some things firm, some things more tenuous/culturally conditioned. Da childish understandin' believes in absolutes, but they are human in origin. An Authority. A Book. Da adolescent understadin' abandons absolutes in favor of relativism, 'cause they see the errors in childishness and human Authority, but don't recognize they're makin' the same kind of error just randomly choosin' from human authorities da ones that feel good. Da adult understandin' believes in absolutes, but not ones human in origin or ones that can be perfectly defined in human words. It doesn't dismiss past understandin' or Authority as irrelevant, but takes 'em as a base from which to keep searching for a deeper understandin' of principles, and a deeper relationship with their Source. Understandin' of morality can change as a person or a culture gets wiser.... or more selfish. Specific actions might change by culture (like we don't use a left-handed scout handshake in Islamic countries, because that would be a great discourtesy). But da principle of courtesy is universal. As is morality. Beavah P.S. Coveting is part of da big 10, GW, because morality is concerned with the health of each human soul, not directly with da welfare of society. Envy is personally destructive to health and happiness and relationships even if it's never manifested as theft, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 "Coveting is part of da big 10, GW, because morality is concerned with the health of each human soul" So those who don't believe that they have a sould can have no morals? Interesting idea. The last six have to do with keeping peace in the neighborhood not your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 Ed writes: Stealing is wrong regardless of the reason. Is it wrong to steal battle plans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 " Play fair or don't play" I'm playing fair, you just don't understand the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 So those who don't believe that they have a sould can have no morals? Yeh can believe that you don't have a liver if yeh want to, to. Doesn't make it any less real. Feel free to substitute whatever word yeh want for "soul" - spirit, personal character. Point is that morality is concerned with the choices of the individual. The last six have to do with keeping peace in the neighborhood not your soul. Nope. Clearly yeh don't understand Judeo-Christian thought. All of da commandments are about the individual and his/her spiritual welfare. Yeh don't work on the sabbath because taking a day to dedicate to God and not personal labor is good for you. Yeh don't worship graven images because it's not good for you and will lead you astray (whether the images are of a golden calf or Benjamin Franklin, eh? You honor your parents because that's good for you. You don't kill because that's what's best for you. It jeopardizes your relationship with God and your own best self. You don't commit adultery because being faithful even when it's hard makes you a stronger, better person. etc. etc. Nothin' there at all about society. Every commandment is about personal growth and personal relationship with Divinity. That it happens that following the commandments also creates a just and strong society is just evidence for their validity. But it ain't the reason. That's why teachin' and encouragin' others to obey the commandments is an act of Kindness. We do it not because it's best for us/society, we teach morality because obeying the commandments is best for the other person's well being. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 " Every commandment is about personal growth and personal relationship with Divinity." If that's what you want to believe, go ahead and believe that but it doesn't make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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