Court rules Pledge of Allegiance 'unconstitutional'

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Since you're a reasonable intelligent person why don't you take a chance and read the Bible through once? What could it hurt? At least you would see the perspective that you are arguing against.

 

I'm familiar enough with it; there are any number of copies on the web. I don't see much reason to read bronze-age mythology.

 

Now I'm kind of curious what you have observed evolve? Could you site specific examples of plants, animals or humans that you have personally observed evolving?

 

Me, personally? None. I have also never been to China, nor have I ever split an atom. But you do realize all of these are well established by repeated observation.

 

Also, I posed a question for you on human evolution the other day: Which human race is genetically superior to the others?

 

There's only one human race.

 

I asked you what scientific contributions creationists have made; do you know of any?

 

Merlyn, I don't find any substantiation for the flat earth theory in the Bible--do you have a book, chapter and verse for me to refer to?

 

Why are you asking me? Ask some flat earthers, or look up their web sites yourself.

[ScoutParent]

Merlyn, are the different groups of humans all in the same species and subspecies, scientifically speaking? What about the Australian Aboriginals? Where do they fit into the evolutionary tree?

 

Are you familiar with the idea that some humans have higher intelligence than others? What is the scientific explanation for the differing levels of intelligence? Do you agree that someone who has an iq of 170 has more reasoning ability than someone who has an iq of 100?

 

Merlyn what macroevolution have evolutionary scientists actually observed or recreated in the laboratory? What evidence beyond looking at old bones do they actually have on their side? Could you site specific evidence that evolution does occur in humans? What specific contributions have evolutionary scientists been attributed with in the areas of medicine and biology?

 

 

Merlyn even if you found you didn't understand or agree with the Bible, it is considered a great collection of literature so on a purely academic level, it is great reading. You really should give it a thorough reading; otherwise it isn't really fair for you to try to use it for arguing your case.

 

Now as far as the question about flat earth theorists, I don't know any to ask, I thought you did because you always refer to them. I find no reason to believe that they were not misinterpretting scripture--that in itself does not discredit Biblical teachings.

 

 

 

 

 

[littlebillie]

"...pointing out flaws in someone's argument stands on its own, it doesn't depend on having an alternate explanation." True enough, but no one should really be surprised or offended when, having done so, they are asked for a possible alternative argument... no surprises there for any reasonable person. Class, the proper response is, "Sorry, I don't have an alternative explanation - sure wish I did, though!" :-)

 

"bronze age mythology?" well, setting aside the apparent desire to be offensive, may I inquire how you feel about the Book of Mormon, then? Or if the Koran, representing a younger faith as well, falls within your readability guidelines?

 

"...talking animals in it?" ah, animal speech - if it refers to the sea, then we know we're talking about dophins and whales, creatures of which (whom?) science is fairly certain have their own audible communications! Balaam's Ass, in turn, may as easily be seen as divine ventriloquism - possibly even more properly so - than animalsitic human speech.

 

moving right along, "What about the Australian Aboriginals? Where do they fit into the evolutionary tree?" interesting. given some of the nearly superhuman abilities they possess, some have argued that they are the most advanced form of human. was that the direction you wanted it to go? the ability to sleep outside, naked (and without dogs, by the way), in sub-zero temperatures - wow! what a survival ability. in the meantime, intelligence as usually used in these discussions, have ultimately resulted in smog, oil spills, Three Mile Chernobyls, and super-bugs. What the heck kind of a yard stick is that!?!

 

"humans that you have personally observed evolving?" well, evolution in a single organism just don't happen. Well, at least not yet. gene therapies may throw that statement out the window. evolutionists recognize a greater timeline than is given by the Bible, so of course there's that whole issue that needs to be dealt with first. We know that the "races" of man are all cross fertile, for whatever that's worth, no inevitable mules come out of that. And we know the so-called Ostrich-foot people of Africa had "evolved" strange pedal adaptations. How's this - ever notice how extra digits run in families? Or if Dad has a tail, Sis may very well have one too?

 

In fact, that's an interesting question. When someone's born with a tail, or exposed gill slits - the evolutionist has a handy explanation. However, I've never heard how a Bible-ist would explain these...? (This is a sincere question, based on sincere interest, btw - no potshots, jsut an honest request for info, just so's ya know!) :-)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Merlyn, are the different groups of humans all in the same species and subspecies, scientifically speaking? What about the Australian Aboriginals? Where do they fit into the evolutionary tree?

 

They're all homo sapiens sapiens. Do you think Aborigines can't have viable offspring with non-Aboriginals or something? Why do you think humans aren't one species?

 

Are you familiar with the idea that some humans have higher intelligence than others? What is the scientific explanation for the differing levels of intelligence? Do you agree that someone who has an iq of 170 has more reasoning ability than someone who has an iq of 100?

 

Intelligence isn't a one-dimensional quality, but you question is pointless; individuals can vary greatly, but that doesn't make other humans a different species, because that isn't the definition of "species".

 

Merlyn what macroevolution have evolutionary scientists actually observed or recreated in the laboratory? What evidence beyond looking at old bones do they actually have on their side? Could you site specific evidence that evolution does occur in humans?

 

Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila", Nature 23:289-292.

 

Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in Epilobium angustifolium (Onaagraceae)", Evolution 21:713-719

 

Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed since they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago.

 

Bullini, L and Nascetti, G, 1991, Speciation by Hybridization in phasmids and other insects, Canadian Journal of Zoology, Volume 68(8), pages 1747-1760.

 

Sharman, G.B., Close, R.L, Maynes, G.M., 1991, Chromosome evolution, phylogeny, and speciation of rock wallabies, Australian Journal of Zoology, Volume 37(2-4), pages 351-363.

 

What specific contributions have evolutionary scientists been attributed with in the areas of medicine and biology?

 

Biology: the entire field post-Darwin. It's like asking how useful has the periodic table of the elements been to chemistry.

 

Medicine: artificially evolved enzymes, for one example.

 

Merlyn even if you found you didn't understand or agree with the Bible, it is considered a great collection of literature so on a purely academic level, it is great reading. You really should give it a thorough reading; otherwise it isn't really fair for you to try to use it for arguing your case.

 

I haven't been.

 

Now as far as the question about flat earth theorists, I don't know any to ask, I thought you did because you always refer to them. I find no reason to believe that they were not misinterpretting scripture--that in itself does not discredit Biblical teachings.

 

I wasn't using them to discredit biblical teachings, I was using them to show that, if people want science to be taught as to not conflict with their religious views, you can't teach much of anything. Flat earthers have just as much right as you to expect school science classes to not teach something in conflict with their religious views.

[firstpusk]

"Merlyn, are the different groups of humans all in the same species and subspecies, scientifically speaking? What about the Australian Aboriginals? Where do they fit into the evolutionary tree?"

 

They are fully modern humans - homo sapiens sapiens just like you and me. They have been more isolated up until recent times but would not be viewed as anything other than humans just like us.

 

"Are you familiar with the idea that some humans have higher intelligence than others? What is the scientific explanation for the differing levels of intelligence? Do you agree that someone who has an iq of 170 has more reasoning ability than someone who has an iq of 100?"

 

Variation within a population is exactly what Natural Selection works on to produce evolutionary change. Why do we have variation in height, eye color and blood type? The differential in reproductive success among that varied population is what determines the evolutionary result.

 

"Merlyn what macroevolution have evolutionary scientists actually observed or recreated in the laboratory? What evidence beyond looking at old bones do they actually have on their side? Could you site specific evidence that evolution does occur in humans? What specific contributions have evolutionary scientists been attributed with in the areas of medicine and biology?"

 

TalkOrigins is a great site for getting the lowdown on the Theory of Evolution. I have given three links I think you will find helpful.

 

29 Evidences of Macroevolution

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

 

Evidence for Evolution - an Ecclectic Survey

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-research.html

 

Observed Instances of Speciation

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

 

On evolution in humans one only has to look at the evidence for hominids that differ from us over the last couple of million years. There is some debate among some academics as to whether evolution in the traditional sense still occurs within the human race. Some argue that cultural/technological evolution has replaced the Darwinian notion of Natural Selection with respect to people. I would say however, we still have diffentials in the survival rate with respect to disease and other causes of death so perhaps this idea is not correct.

 

In terms of science that is a result of evolutionary biology - you have the whole field of modern biology. As Theodosius Dobzhansky said, "Nothing in Biology makes sense except in the light of evolution". Gene splicing, the human genome, the understanding of infectious agents like HIV and better vaccines are all the result of applying evolutionary concepts.

 

This thinking will be at the heart of an intellectual revolution in the next century.

[littlebillie]

Too much is made of IQ - and IQ testing. First, unless there have been some major advances in the last week, the IQ tests in use almost necessarily reflect the cultural bias of their developers; there are no IQ tests in use today that measure an IQ adapted to recognizing 17 different types of snow or recognizing the difference between the footprints of a rogue male elephant and a terminally ill matron.

 

Even within a country - ours, for example - IQ tests for too many years have been limited to scan a certain subset of all American culture. There is no IQ test in use in the schools that accomodates street cultures on any level, and in the final analysis, all that is generally measured is the testee's schooling; there is intelligence beyond school, but you don't find a whole lot of tests based in Ebonics, or that talk about car engine stats instead of cooking measurements.

 

So - yeah, if your own splinter population does well on an IQ test that it developed, well - hey, good for you, but how does it really relate to a Soth Seas pearl diver or a Bushman? Not at all, I think is the answer you're looking for!

 

'K, so now let's look at what your basic Euro-style IQ has done for the world. Um... Industrial Revolution gave us pollution, child labor, and the alarm clock. Nuclear weaponry.

Super bugs and death dealing drugs - hey, intelligence goes glue-sniffing, after all!

 

What a lot of people lose sight of is that IQ is just one more trait, like sharp teeth, night vision or a diving reflex. IF ANY TRAIT ALLOWS A SPECIES TO OUT-COMPETE EVERYTHING ELSE IN ITS NICHE, that trait is likely to be ultimately responsible for the extinction of the species that developed it. An intelligent, territorial omnivore pretty soon wipes out the available game, chews the grass down to the roots and unless it has a chance to move along, will go thru cycles of severe privation, decimation, and slow re-population if it survives at all.

 

Most of the time, the poet's cat is the happier beast...