Court rules Pledge of Allegiance 'unconstitutional'

[ScoutParent]

As I was reading these posts today, it became apparent that we, the people who believe in "Duty to God" and "A Scout is Reverent" need to begin advocating those ideals. By advocacy, I mean take the time to get your beliefs and principles known. Write a letter to every politician in your area, to your congressmen, President of the U.S., etc. Send letters to corporations in your area that let them know how valuable their contribution to the BSA would be to you and your family. Let those entities that no longer support the BSA in your area know how your support will no longer be available to their endeavors. We do have a responsibility in the preservation of our rights and it's time we start fulfilling it.(This message has been edited by ScoutParent)

[Rooster7]

Between this thread, another with the subject heading "earrings", and several others on homosexuality, there must be well over 500 posts. I'm tempted, just out of morbid curiosity, to see what kind of reaction the following thread would draw -

 

Homosexuals and Atheists create their own "scouting" organization - Earrings are part of the uniform (left or right ear depending on "orientation") and Pledge is optional.

 

Of course, that's probably a little long for a thread title.

 

 

[littlebillie]

"In case you haven't noticed it, many tax dollars are spent celebrating minority skin colors"

 

Although when I hear it, this construction is generally delivered rudely, I haven't heard it this time, and will just assume that it's been delivered gracelessly and without rudeness.

 

 

See, this is tax dollars authorized in many cases by a white majority, and frankly taking advantage of something a handful of people worked really hard at to get and keep going. By "taking advantage" I mean that a LOT of literature and websites addressing the contributions of black Americans to our society that were quite frankly ignored entirely when I was in school.

 

From this perspective, a lot of majority tax money has been save.

 

REGARDLESS of how you look at it, it's the majority tipping its hat to a minority, rather than glorifying being white.

 

'S different.

 

It really is.

[Zorn Packte]

REGARDLESS of how you look at it, it's the majority tipping its hat to a minority, rather than glorifying being white.

 

The PC world wants us to feel guilty so the Blacks get a month.

 

Why can't we glorify being white? The blacks get to glorify being black at taxpayer expense?

 

'S different.

 

It really is.

 

Delude yourself if you wish. The Chineese invented gunpowder and the compass. The Arabs perfected metalsmithing. The Hindus gave us Algebra. The Europeans explored the world. Until 150 years ago, the most notable black contribution to society was that they sold their brethern into slavery.

 

We spend a month celebrating a few jazz musicians and a squadron of fighter pilots. We ignore the coolies that died building the railroads, the Irish, Welsh, and Slavs that died in the coal mines. How about the pioneers that left the east and died along the road to the west?

 

 

[tjhammer]

It was the individual's right to free association that was protected by the Supreme Court in the BSA v Dale case... the "organization" is merely an association of individuals with rights. And because membership in the BSA is optional and not state sponsored (unlike, for example, taxed citizenship in a community), it was argued that there wasn't a violation of the Bill of Rights in the BSA's exclusionary and discriminatory practices. (Now, as many of you know, I am a supporter of the Supreme Court decision, and an even stronger supporter of the fact that the BSA now needs to change it's exclusionary policy... but a whole new thread on the "gay issue" really could be started where I would argue that the real way for someone to beat the BSA in court on this issue would have been to successfully argue that the BSA is a business, not an organization. If anyone wants to explore that discussion, I'm game.)

[packsaddle]

Merlyn, One comment you made earlier about atheism and scientists was troubling. While I think I understand your intent, the scientist at best tries to practice a disciplined skepticism. They may invent or adopt an idea but then try their best to disprove it through rational or empirical tests called experiments. If they fail, they then qualify the idea saying that it is conditionally accepted, until good evidence to the contrary is found. As you might imagine, lawyers hate to put good scientists on the witness stand.

Some persons believe that if applied to matters of faith, this approach is indicative of atheism. However, atheism is another belief system in which the practitioner KNOWS that there is no deity. In contrast, scientists by their nature should be unable to adopt such an absolute position but rather reject it as being untestable. Science simply cannot address, examine, or in any way criticize matters of faith. St. Augustine said that faith has no purpose if not to transcend reason. That is consistent with the view of the scientist although the lay public often does not understand the difference. Individual scientists are therefore free to adopt personal belief systems as best they can...just like the rest of us. Why each individual chooses the way they do is probably beyond public explanation.

[packsaddle]

Zorn, your statements must be answered. I have tried to understand the source of such views but long discussions with my friends who say similar things have never been very satisfying. Without dignifying the tone of your comments and assuming the best, I suggest you refer to a book by Jared Diamond, "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" (ISBN: 0393317552), for reasonably objective treatment of topics close to your views. If your views are simply based in prejudice (as some of my friends freely admit), the exercise will do no harm. Otherwise it could be of some benefit.

 

TJHammer, Go for it!

[littlebillie]

To Zorn P.

 

From http://ph.infoplease.com/spot/asianintro1.html

 

"In May 1990, the holiday was expanded further when President George H. W. Bush designated May to be Asian Pacific American Heritage Month."

 

From

http://www.factmonster.com/spot/hhm1.html

 

"Hispanic Heritage Month begins on September 15 because this day marks the anniversary of

independence for five Hispanic countriesCosta Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Nicaragua. In addition, Mexico achieved independence on September 16, and Chile on September 18."

 

 

I hope the rest of your diatribe is better researched... :-) my son's school is currently celebrating HH, and did APA last May. Since curricula are often up to the local schools and boards, and often to the state departments of education, you may wish to write yours about getting these months acknowledged.

 

And of course, it is the majority finding its way clear to extend appreciation, rather than enforce exclusion, that helps bring these months into existence. Black History month had a different kind of origin, which you may wish to read up on. (Hey, that sentence ended with TWO prepositions! I ROCK!)

 

ok incoming calls - gotta run!

 

 

 

 

 

[Zorn Packte]

When is there going to be a Europrean American Appreciation Month? It would probably be declared discriminatory just like the Society of White Male Engineers was outlawed at the University of Pittsburgh even though there was a Society of Black Engineers and a Society of Women Engineers.

 

Since curricula are often up to the local schools and boards, and often to the state departments of education, you may wish to write yours about getting these months acknowledged.

 

Actually, I don't want any of these days to be celebrated. TR said that there should be no hyphenated Americans and by having all of these goofy days, we just accentuate the differences.

[ScoutParent]

"However, atheism is another belief system in which the practitioner KNOWS that there is no deity"

 

Let's be accurate, shall we, try ASSUMES, BELIEVES, SUPPOSES. An atheist that "KNOWS" is surely not going on logic, so what could they be basing it on, FAITH?

 

 

I was curious why you didn't give Umberto Eco credit for more than the post script the other day--such a large part of your post was his verbatim.

 

PS I understood your insinuation in the post scrip, just wanted to see if you would stand behind your words.

[red feather]

I have a friend who teaches american government and politcal history and will recommend that they get his students to review this thread. Excellent. All of the ideas proposed and discussed are valid and worthy of the effort expended. As an observer of this thread I must say that it has made me appreciate the priveleges and freedoms we have to discuss, argue, agree and disagree that we have here in our country.

 

This entire thread is an example of what this country and we are all about.

 

Tjhammer... please allow me to quote you from a different thread, I hope I got it right;

 

"By plurality and relative perspective or mores. And by mutual respect for each other, tolerance and standing on common ground."

 

This is what we are all doing. Thnak you.

 

YIS

[OldGreyEagle]

I never thought of it until this thread, but Columbus Day is a pretty good European Holiday. I mean, this guy gets credit for "Discovering" the "New World", ignoring it was pretty well inhabited at the time. The Christmas Holiday is a combination of many European traditions, the Yule log from England and the Germanic influences as well. Then again, Halloween is a a reflection of old Druid traditions. Most holidays have some religious background and the christianity in the US is definitely Euro-Centrist.

 

I cant recall for sure and you guys in Illinois help me out here. I remember back quite a few years ago when Harold Washington became the first black mayor of Chicago. It was during his adminstration that Martin Luthor King day became a national holiday. A group of Chicago alderman, known as the "Ethnic" (read that as white) alderman wanted a holiday for a white man as well. Well, they went to their history books and came up with Kasmir Pulaski (used to be Crawford, now its Pulaski, only a Chicago native will get that). So now in Illinois there is a state holiday in February honoring Kasmir Pulaski, a noble man who sold his fortune in Poland to come to America to help George Washington at Valley Forge, but some how how he got his own holiday seems tarnished.

 

BTW, did the Society of White Male Engineers ask the ACLU for help? Seems like that would have been fair turnabout.

[Zorn Packte]

I never thought of it until this thread, but Columbus Day is a pretty good European Holiday.

 

When is the last time that you got Columbus Day off?

[OldGreyEagle]

I dont recall the last time I got Columbus day off, but then I have never gotten Martin Luthor King day off, or Casmir Pulaski day, Arbor day or Kwanza either.

 

I do manage to get off at least one weekend a month to camp out with my multi-racial troop where we cook, have activities, sing songs and generally have fun and no one cares who is white, black, asian or south american.

Now THAT is holiday!

[Zorn Packte]

I dont recall the last time I got Columbus day off, but then I have never gotten Martin Luthor King day off, or Casmir Pulaski day, Arbor day or Kwanza either.

 

Around here school is out on MLK day but Columbus Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day are all school days.