Court rules Pledge of Allegiance 'unconstitutional'

[sctmom]

Need that blood pressure to go up a few notches?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html

 

 

[Quixote]

The 9th Circuit is the most liberal and the most overturned appeals court in the country

 

Gee, I wonder why?

 

One of the most ludicrous rulings in a while, but isn't too much farther than my God given right to pray wherever I want, including public school.

 

From this website http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning/quotes.html

 

Red Skelton - The Pledge of Allegiance

 

From the Red Skelton Hour, January 14, 1969

 

"Getting back to school, I remember a teacher that I had. Now I only went, I went through the seventh grade. I left home when I was 10 years old because I was hungry. (laughter) And .. this is true. I worked in the summer and went to school in the winter. But, I had this one teacher, he was the principal of the Harrison school, in Vincennes, Indiana. To me, this was the greatest teacher, a real sage of..of my time, anyhow.

 

He had such wisdom. We were all reciting the Pledge of Allegiance one day, and he walked over. This little old teacher ... Mr. Lasswell was his name. He said:

 

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?

 

 

 

I me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity.

Allegiance my love and my devotion.

To the Flag our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job.

of the United that means that we have all come together.

States individual communities that have united into 48 great states. 48 individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose, all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

of America and to the Republic Republic ... a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For Which It Stands One Nation One Nation ... meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible incapable of being divided.

With Liberty which is freedom, the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice the principle or qualities of dealing fairly with others.

For All For all ... which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

 

 

And now boys and girls let me hear you recite, the "Pledge of Allegiance."

 

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance - "under God." Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said, "That is a prayer," and that would be eliminated from schools, too?"

 

[Rooster7]

Quixote,

 

Just wanted to let you know...I appreciate your postings. Keep it up.

 

In Him,

 

Rooster

[dan]

SHHHHH

THEY may hear you!

[evmori]

Someone please show me where in the COnstitution it says the church & state must be separate? I can't seem to find it anywhere!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Quixote]

Ed,

 

Good point, i don't think it exists, but...

 

Hey NJ, as our resident ambulance chaser what's the basis of the "seperation of church and state".

 

I'd always thought we had freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion - big difference in my mind.

 

R7 - Thanks.

[littlebillie]

The separation of church and state language comes from the Bill of Rights.

 

 

Amendment I

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the

Government for a redress of grievances.

 

 

[Quixote]

Gee, i don't see the words "seperation of church and state", but rather that the government won't create a "church of america" kind of like the church of england, but i do see that it's not supposed to prohibit the free exercise of religion (of which i believe prayer in schools and saying the pledge and singing God Bless America fall) - don't see anything in that about freedom from religion except for a state run religion.

 

Seems like the lawyers are running amok again. (except for our NJ of course)

 

 

[sctmom]

In a letter from Thomas Jefferson to The Danbury Baptist Association in 1802:

 

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

 

One of Jefferson's proudest accomplishments was the Virginia Statue of Religious Freedom, an inspiration for the First Amendment.

"...that our civile rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry;"

"the truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error,..."

"Be it...enacted by the General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shal be free to profess, and by argument maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities."

 

 

Let me also recommend you look in the library for a set of books by Britannica called "The Annals of America". It is about 20 volumes of documents from 1492 to 1986 about the United States --- letters, speechs, laws, essays, newspaper articles, etc. A lot from our "founding fathers".

 

[evmori]

Quixote,

Thanks. This has been one of my soapbox battles for years!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[eisely]

This ruling is so risible that I predict the full 9th Circuit Court will reverse. If the judiciary of this country feels that it does not get the respect it deserves, or worries about being "politicized," it need look no further than this silly ruling to understand why the judiciary suffers in the public eye.

 

At moments like these I look for a secret phrase in the preamble to the consitution regarding the purpose of the federal government. I think the founders meant to say, "...form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare (and provide entertainment) do ordain and establish etc etc..."

[OldGreyEagle]

I just dont understand it, then again, I dont understand a lot of things...

 

When I think of the images of the days post 9/11 the American Flag is prominent. Whether its the picture of the firemen raising Old Glory at ground zero or being paraded on the field during the World Series, the images are burned in my brain. The proliferation of cars sporting flags and houses adorned with flags can still be seen.

The terrorists thought they could disrupt our lives and tear us apart, instead the American people solidified into the most cohesive unit I have ever seen in my lifetime. And just what was the rallying point? What prominent icon was the central point of this unification? It was the American Flag. From full 3 foot x 5 foot flags flowing off the back of Harley-Davidson motorcycles to the 3 inch x 5 inch flag taped to the family SUV antenna, we had more in common, been friendlier to each other than I ever thought possible.

 

And now having to promise to support that flag is illegal in the country that that flag created. The study of history shows that most great civilizations crumbled from within, not by a foreign influence, it appears if the terrorists really want to do away with us, all they have to do is wait and we will do the job ourselves.

[littlebillie]

"under God" is pretty Judeo-Christian, and leaves out a lot of Americans. I have to think that there are a number of posters who - while expressing outrage - have wondered, at least idly and on occasion, when this was going to be tested.

 

THERE IS NO SURPRISE HERE. It wasn't a question of if, but when.

 

And when is now. I am NOT surprised, but I am hugely disappointed. I've known atheists and religious folks both who have simply omitted those words when reciting the pledge, the first for reasons of lack of religion, and the second for separation. And never found the need, having made their personal accomodation, to raise a ruckus.

 

Legally, it's probably a sound, all other things being normal - but these are not normal times in world events, and I'd say this is giving succor to the enemy, and reinforcing the image of the Godless Empire...

 

"...one Nation, under Heaven..."?

[sctmom]

OGE, It's not about supporting the flag, it's about the phrase "under God" which was not added until the 1950's.

 

Even before the "under God" phrase was added, people questioned the constitutionality of making school children pledge allegiance to the flag. To some religions this is blasphemy. Remember the pledge was not written in 1892. According to some reports, it was written because people were not feeling very "patriotic". Also, getting school children to salute the flag each day would increase the chance of people buying a flag and increase interest in the flag. Many reports also say the writer was a Socialist.

 

I agree this is a tough one to figure out. I don't understand why a person cannot just skip the words "under God"

[Quixote]

Sctmom,

 

Thanks for the info on Jefferson's letter - i was aware that the phrase "seperation of church and state" came from one of his letters.

 

My point is that it is most definately NOT in the constitution.

 

 

"On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand"