Childhood

[Rooster7]

You have it backwards. The BSA is the one that recently changed their standards and implemented a new policy banning homosexuals. This was not a policy (or even a topic of discussion) prior to the last 80's and really late 90's.

 

Ah yesyou seem to be of the opinion that the Baden-Powell and those associated with BSA in the early 1900s were social progressives. Did it ever occur to you that society's disdain for homosexuality was so widespread that it was unnecessary for the organization to draft a formal policy? Does BSA have a policy on bestiality? Of course it does not. In today's society this practice is commonly accepted as perverse. There's no need for BSA to adopt a formal policy. On the other hand, should large segments of our society become so ill and attempt to legitimize bestiality, be assured that BSA would draft a policy. However, you can be just as confident that this not a new standard. BSA has the same standards that they endorsed nearly one hundred years ago. To suggest that the BSA powers-to-be in the early 1900s were more liberal than their successors in 2002 seems less than sincere to me.

 

And I've responded many times to your general assertion that parents should not place their boys in Scouting if they disagree with this one new policy... to make that kind of a statement is silly and suggests that Scouting has no other value than being a safe haven from associating with homosexuals. It's the same silliness behind those that claim (though I don't believe) they would quit Scouting if this one policy was changed and made a matter of local decision.

 

I don't find this assertion to be silly. Nevertheless, I would like to suggest that most of the folks who want to open BSA's doors to homosexuals, also want to open the doors to atheists. So, it's not just this one issue. Truth be told, it's an assortment of issues. Today, it's homosexuals and atheists. In a few years, if some folks have their way, BSA will be under attack because it makes boys say the Pledge of Allegiance. Maybe, these folks will fight to get bisexuals accepted in Scouting. Perhaps, they'll try to take the boy out of Scouts, and make it a unisex organization. I have no doubt that this is NOT just a one-issue battle. Furthermore, even if this was a one-issue battle, it's a very BIG issue to me. If these parents felt that the "homosexual ban" was so minor, then they shouldn't be trying to discredit the organization that they joined. Otherwise, they should not have joined at all.

[tjhammer]

First, let me apologize for calling you silly. As you know, I'm usually very careful about how I choose my words, and generally attack only ideas, not people, in my debate. I would have preferred if my sentence read that the sentiment you expressed was silly, not that you are. I didn't catch that slip of tongue until it was too late to edit. most of the folks who want to open BSA's doors to homosexuals, also want to open the doors to atheistsThere's absolutely no proof of this. I have personally said that I believe it is impossible to belong to Scouting without a belief in a higher power, and that I embrace a Scout's Duty to God as a fundamental basis for his entire Scouting experience. I doubt that any person that has debated on this board in favor of my point of view would argue that Scouting should accept atheists (I can only think of one person that would be the exception to this rule, and it has often been observed that his Scouting credentials are questionable). You might be judging this based only on the "outside activists", but I don't think you can possibly back up your claim that most of us who believe homosexuals can be moral people also lack a belief in God. Certainly the statistics of participants in this debate on this board dont support that conclusion.you seem to be of the opinion that the Baden-Powell and those associated with BSA in the early 1900s were social progressivesWe've discussed it before. You'll not find any condemnation of homosexuality in any quotes from B-P or ET Seton or Dan Beard or James West of Bill Hillcourt or any of the other giants of Scouting past (at least I've never seen any). And its not because such topics were taboo ever read B-Ps Paddle Your Own Canoe or Varsity of Life... pretty frank talk in those books. To suggest that they never condemned gays is because homosexuality didn't exist in their time is a non-starter. But more to the point, let's look at more modern times. Until Scouting's very public stance on this issue came to a head, I wonder how many of our members believed Scouting had a position one way or another on this issue? Even more to the point, I would be willing to wager that a very large percentage of the parents, leaders and boys of the current membership STILL don't know any policy exists (and if they do it's because they heard it by rumor, not because BSA has ever told them forthrightly). Truth is, there were (and are still) thousands of homosexuals in Scouting. And nobody cared. (Incidentally, B-P and Dan Beard and ET Seton all had very liberal politics for their time and were very far toward the "progressive" side of life, based on just about every biographical sketch I have ever read.)So, it's not just this one issue. Truth be told, it's an assortment of issues.Ah, the slippery slope. It's just intellectually dishonest to debate this topic only by threatening a slippery slope, attacking the messengers intent or associating homosexuality with some other act. Yet this is the standard tactic used very often ("watch out, they'll want you to give up the pledge of allegiance next" and "watch out, these people are really Godless" and "watch out, if homosexuality is OK then so is bestiality").

(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, I've got to disagree with your logic. I don't like the fact abortion is legal in the United States. However, I do not contemplate leaving American society because of one issue it allows that I vehemently am opposed to. I will work within the system to change the system.

 

Bubba,

 

In any form misogyny is hateful, boys shouldnt know women can be strong resourceful role models? Women have their place in scouting? In Cubs with the little boys and in Committee positions only? But when the men hit the woods its males only??? What message are we sending there? I would like to know why women cant be "hands on leaders"

 

[NJCubScouter]

Bubba Bear says:

 

NJCubScouter, appears to be a young male adult...

 

These days, I normally take "young" as a compliment, though in this case it does not seem to be meant as such. I would be curious as to how you reached this conclusion. (I will admit that I can be a "wise guy" at times, but that's not youth, it's just me.) I'm also not sure what "young" means these days, except that by any definition, I no longer qualify. If you read my profile you would see that I am an Assistant Cubmaster, and in other parts of this forum I have talked about my son who is a Webelos Scout. I also have mentioned learning semaphore instead of Morse Code to earn First Class as a boy, which depending on how old you are, may give you a clue. I may even, at some point, have mentioned that I have a daughter who would be finishing her sophomore year in college if she wasn't about to start her freshman year instead.

 

I'm not so sure you are even as old as me, not that it matters. Not that any of this matters, but you started it.

[BubbaBear]

OGE,

 

Praise be! I finally got someone to talk about something other that the gay issue!

 

I am not a misogynist (thank you for teaching me a new word). I genuinely like women as a matter of fact.

 

I just believe that cooking meals for the boys while on a camping trip, driving into town two or three times for supplies, teaching the boys college beer drinking songs or playing grab-ass with the kids during a meeting are not some of the things I would like to include in my active portrayal of Boy Scouting. (I have experienced this)

 

Getting back to the origional topic of "Childhood"

(you folks remember that?), I believe that men and women have specific duties in rearing children. I have the upmost respect for my mother (God rest her soul). She provided me with the nurturing that allowed me to form the tolerance for people of different opinions. Dad had the strength of being to provide for us all and worked relentlessly toward that pursuit.

 

So (just as some other people would argue),would you like me to put aside those values I learned as a child and life long learning experiences to accomodate political correctness? Sorry, I don't think so.

 

If a woman can do the job, by all means...DO IT!

If they are there for the fun of it, please try to remember that "scouting is a game with a purpose".

 

There is, as you know, a distictive transition between Cubbies and Boy Scouts. In Cubs the adults make all the decisions for the kids. In Boy Scouts we are trying to teach the boys to stand on their own two feet. This is the time to take them away from the protectiveness of mom.

 

I firmly believe that women can (I am sorry but I do not know how to emphasize on this confounded thing) and are positive role models for the boys, in a female sense. I do not care for them as

competitors with my male role model figure. Of course, it is not my decision to make, is it?

 

Thanks for branding me "hateful", I thought that I had been portraying myself otherwise all this time.

 

 

 

 

[BubbaBear]

NJCubScouter,

Let's just say that by your morse code reference, we are close in age (although sometimes I can't remember that far back)!

 

I drew that conclusion by reading your profile and seeing that most of your scouting references are of the "youth type" and that you have been an ASM (which is typical of youth moving into adulthood). Guess I was wrong but as you said that is irrelevant.

 

TJ,

Thanks for your assessment of my being, it is in fact true, I can disassociate myself to be able to view both sides. I really do not wish to debate this anymore. I have said my peace and further discussion of this issue in these forums will neither persuade or dissuade a policy change. I prefer to let nature take its course, whatever that may be. As I have said numerous times, "show me the benefit to the boys of allowing homosexuals to be leaders in scouting".

 

Rooster,

 

Please correct me if I am wrong; didn't you say somewhere that you were raised a Catholic? If so, you were taught to "judge not lest ye be judged".

Try not to get confused by "open minded people" causing so much discord. Many of them have provided us with medical miracles, wonderous inventions, and even the Declaration of Independence. As far as the individuals whom choose to subvert society by utilizing the mass media or other methods, I hold them in disdain as well.

 

TO ALL: We have much more serious issues at hand right now, such as an impending world war, please keep that in the back of your heads.

[Bob White]

I think a more logical completion of OGE's premise is... since you don't agree with the law allowing abortion, you could (or would) choose to not be a member of an organization that supported abortions.

 

Just as a person who did not agree with the BSA membership rules can choose not to belong to the BSA, but rather join another organization that did agree with their viewpoint.

 

Leaving the country or relinquishing rights is not needed. Instead those who disagree with the values that have always been held in the BSA program (but have only been made a hot news item in the last few years) could exercise their rights and join an organization that they share values with, just as those who share the values of scouting have the right to restrict membership to reflect those values.

 

There are those who say it is not our right to limit membership because they see it is morally wrong. I would counter that by saying there are those of us who find abortion morally wrong, but we are mature enough to accept that the courts have determined it to be legal.

 

I would not support the act of abortion, but I would not join a pro abortion group and try to convince them they no longer had the right because I disagreed with them.

 

If a person disagreed with the tenets of a church they don't join the church to become a Sunday school teacher, they join a different church. The Sunday school teacher takes the job to teach and spread the beliefs of the church. If they speak against the church they would expect to loss their job. Not because they don't have the right to disagree, but because thay are not doing the job they are supposed to be doing.

 

A person who volunteers to be a scout leader agrees to, and is expected to, follow and support the tenets of scouting. If they don't they are removed. Why are some surprised by this? It is not because they don't have the right to disagree, but because that is not the job they are supposed to be doing.

 

Before you let anyone convince you that expulsion from the BSA due to your sexuality is a growing plague, consider how many cases you have ever heard of (fact or fiction) and divide it by the number of members of the BSA over the years. I believe it is now over 130,000,000. I believe you will find it well under 1%. On the other hand we have leaders on this very bulletin board who admit they do not follow the methods and programs of the BSA and lose 30%-50% of their new scouts every year. More boys have been driven from scouting by poor adult leaders than by the values of scouting. If you want a tragedy to champion, you would do more good, for more boys, by attending to that.

 

Bob White

[BubbaBear]

Bravo, Bob White. I take back anything snide I've ever said about you fowel!

[NJCubScouter]

BobWhite says:

 

A person who volunteers to be a scout leader agrees to, and is expected to, follow and support the tenets of scouting.

 

If I believed that exclusion of gays, for no reason other than that they are gay, was a "tenet of Scouting," I would not be here, either in this organization or in this forum. I don't believe it is. It is a misinterpretation of the principles of Scouting, by people who wish to impose their religious beliefs on everybody else.

 

That being the case, I will stay in Scouting, and will continue to devote about 99 percent of my efforts to helping to run my pack and den, and about 1 percent to help try to change the policy.

[Bob White]

"It is a misinterpretation of the principles of Scouting, by people who wish to impose their religious beliefs on everybody else."

 

Right, and the traffic laws are a misinterpretation of the principles of the founding fathers. So you will continue to obey all the other laws except the few traffic laws that YOU don't agree with. That still makes you a bad driver.

 

 

 

[Quixote]

NJ - see any more black helicopters in your neighborhood lately?

 

It is a misinterpretation of the principles of Scouting, by people who wish to impose their religious beliefs on everybody else.

 

 

 

[BubbaBear]

I am not aware of all the details of this debate as obviously some of you are. I am curious about one thing though; was it the Morman Church that threatened to pull out of scouting over this morality issue? Isn't polygamy immoral because it "conflicts with generally or traditionally held moral principles"?

 

The Catholic Church, which I am a non-practicing member of (at least at the church we been attending) currently teaches that "we love and accept homosexuals but not approve of the practice of homosexual relations".

 

Now let me share this with you (Rooster,perk up),

while my two oldest were attending the local Catholic school, the church sponsored a workshop for the kids on "Sex Education". As a parent, I volunteered to be a coach in the workshop. The head instructor was the church's religious education director.

 

The workshop went well and was well attended. At the vary end of the program, however, the director said that she was going to discuss the topic of "oral sex" with the kids. I protested in rage.

Within two weeks, she (and the school pricipal, a nun whom I later learned was her "mate") were gone from the local church. It was not the result of my protest and appeared to be a move on their own.

 

All organizations have improprieties amongst their own.

As is the case with American foreign policy, should we take care of our own before trying to dictate to everyone else?

 

Although I am not in favor of homosexuals being in Scouting (for the reasons I have already spelled out), I am equally against any groups who wish to dictate policy when they need to look at their own morality as well.(This message has been edited by BubbaBear)

[BubbaBear]

I would like to offer something to you all.

 

Recently, I completed my Doctorate of Scouting Arts (Phd for you educated which translates to "Piled Higher and Deeper"). The subject of my thesis is: "The Need for Unbiased Chartering Organizations in Delivering Scouting's Promise", or "An Impartial Investment in Tomorrow's Leaders".

 

I think you will find it interesting. If you would like a copy, send me a letter with $1 postage to:

 

Jake Lekan

32240 Washington Loop Road

Punta Gorda, Florida 33982

 

Be sure to include your mailing address, don't be alarmed, I have given you mine.

 

1) Anything that benefits the boys is good

2) Anything that does not, is bad

3) When in doubt refer to #1

 

In the Spirit of Scouting,

 

Jake "BubbaBear" Lekan

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Bubba, Polygamy has been banned in the LDS for over a hundred years. Yes, you can find highly publicized stories of a husband and multiple wives who profess to be LDS, but they have as much relevance to the LDS church as David Korresh in Waco had to being Christian or the Freeman in Montana had to being American citizens

 

Or that Eagle scout who assisted in Matthew Shepards murder(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[CubsRgr8]

When Rooster7 says "most of the folks who want to open BSA's doors to homosexuals, also want to open the doors to atheists" tjhammer responds "There's absolutely no proof of this." HA! HA! HA! THAT'S FUNNY!!! I nearly fell off my chair when I read that!

 

Go visit the Scouting For All website and see for yourselves! The largest, most visible and aggressive organization in the USA to change the BSA stance on openly homosexual adult leaders ALSO states that it wants to change the BSA stance on atheists! The "All" in S4A specifically includes atheists.

 

tjhammer then goes on to say "I believe it is impossible to belong to Scouting without a belief in a higher power, and that I embrace a Scout's Duty to God as a fundamental basis for his entire Scouting experience." I'm with him there. His statement implies that he doesn't support accepting atheists, but, you know, he never actually says that. So, I'll ask plainly:

 

tjhammer, do you support BSA policy excluding atheists from registered adult leadership positions? I look forward to reading your answer.