Greatness

[eisely]

This is a random extension from the thread on patriotism in the schools.

 

As scouters we ought to be able to talk knowledgeably about leaders of the past and who should be considered exemplars for today's youth. Who do you think were the great leaders of the last century and why? Here are some candidates:

 

Anwar Sadat who gave his life to make peace between Egypt and Israel.

 

Winston Churchill who understood the threat of fascism and communism and was steadfast in his opposition to both.

 

Pope John Paul II who probably did more to bring the Soviet empire to an end than any other person.

 

Franklin Delano Roosevelt who inspired the people of the US when inspiration was lacking.

 

Mother Theresa for her life of selflessness.

 

Ghandi for his example of leading a country towards non violent change.

 

Others?

[sctmom]

Eleanor Roosevelt for NOT divorcing Franklin when he was unfaithful, that would have destroyed his political career and she knew he could do good things for peopl. Also, she was behind a lot of his policies.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

George Washington, not because he was a brilliant general, which he was: not because he was the first president and a brilliant leader who inspired those about him, which he was; but because he left politics when he could have been "King" becasue he beleived in serving his country and not that he deserved to be served by his country

 

Martin Luthur King, who had a dream of racial equality

 

Bobby Kennedy, who while others asked "why?", he asked "why not?"

 

Arthur Ashe, who always bore himself with grace and dignity even as he faced his greatest trial through no fault of his own

 

OOps, that was supposd to be this past century.... But I cant erase George now...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

In Politics:

 

Ronald Reagan - Never afraid to speak the truth even if the truth was not politically correct. He was a true patriot who inspired a nation to feel proud again (following the debacle in Iran). He was a warrior who was not afraid to fight a just cause. He ended the Cold War. Russia was an evil empire (just ask those passengers on KLOA). When you're children go to sleep at night, how often do they think about a nuclear war? When I was growing up, I use to think about it quite often (born in 59). He understood the economy like few do today. Supply side economics works and he proved it. How prosperous were the 80's? I would say, "pretty darn good." How many terrorist actions were taken against the U.S. in the 80's? I can't recall but I know there were very few (if any) nations willing to take us on. Does anyone doubt that President Reagan's presence in the oval office commanded that respect? He was a genuine leader in every sense of the word. His words gave us confidence. His actions backed his words.

 

Ronald Reagan hands down. I only wish I had a chance to meet him.

 

These next three don't really qualify as leaders, or at least not political leaders, but they are three of my favorite people.

 

In Religion:

 

Billy Graham - Because he dedicated his life to bringing others to Christ.

 

In Entertainment:

 

Bob Hope - Because he made so many laugh and never stooped to lowbrow or nasty humor. And, he always recognized the sacrifices of our servicemen...regardless whether or not a particular war was popular.

 

And

 

Jimmy Stewart - Because his movies uplifted the common man. He made you feel good about this country and the people in it. And, he was a real life hero in WWII.

 

[eisely]

Here is another name.

 

Vaclav Havel, president of the Czech Republic. He pulled off a bloodless revolution against the Russians and had the wisdom to let the Slovaks go their way and allow Czechoslovakia to be divided.

 

Ataturk probably deserves mention. He was the founder of modern Turkey in the years following World War I, a country that has transcended its past in many ways.

[berkshirescouter]

Let me add two more.

 

Harry Truman - When a decision had to be made it. He didn't take a pole he looked at what was good for the country, not for him politicaly.

 

John Wayne - Some of the best family, westerns and War movies ever made were made by him. Also a great friend of Scouts.

[NJCubScouter]

A few more and a few comments:

 

While I would agree with the placement of Vaclav Havel on the list, if he is there, then the list must also include Lech Walesa -- perhaps a bit higher on the list. While Havel brought a free and democratic Czechoslovakia out of the collapse of the Soviet bloc (and then allowed the natural de-merger of his own country), I think Walesa did more to bring about that collapse. He and his Solidarity movement demonstrated that a Communist country could have an opposition movement, and no matter what the Communists did to stop him, he eventually prevailed. And just as Havel let Slovakia go, Walesa stepped aside peacefully when he was defeated in elections -- not something that has always occurred as the former Soviet bloc countries have struggled to achieve democracy.

 

The mind briefly moves to the name of Boris Yeltsin, but passes over. The story of the collapse of the Soviet Union cannot be told without him, and he did show a great deal of courage against adversity. However, his respect for democracy once in office was somewhat spotty, and his overwhelming personal weaknesses (alcohol and corruption) probably don't add up to an "exemplar for today's youth."

 

Anwar Sadat was mentioned, but next to him must go Menachem Begin. You need two people to sign a treaty. While Begin did not pay with his life, it still took a great deal of courage for him to lead his country into giving up the same piece of real estate for the third time, in exchange for a mere promise of peace. The fact that that promise has held up through all the subsequent turmoil in the Middle East is a testament to both men.

 

Then there is the third man at the table at Camp David -- Jimmy Carter. There has been a lot of discussion about him on the other thread and I don't want to repeat all of it. (For the record, I voted against him in the 1976 and 1980 Democratic primaries, for him in the 1976 election, and against him (for John Anderson) in the 1980 election.) I do not believe he was a great president, but I do believe he was a great peacemaker, and was and is a great humanitarian, and ultimately a great man despite his failures as president and occasional goofs and glimmers of poor judgment as ex-president. Unlike many politicians, even what he has done poorly was done because he thought it was right and in a sincere effort to make the nation and the world a better place.

 

Going back to Sadat, I think Yitzhak Rabin also goes on the list. He, too, gave his life for peace. He shook the hand of Arafat for the first time, and without getting into everything that is going on now, that was an extremely courageous move at the time and paved the way for the subsequent peace efforts that could have succeeded if... well, I'd better not go there lest this go way off-topic. (I don't want to make this too Jewish-centric, but my personal list of heroes also includes Israeli leaders David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meier and Moshe Dayan.)

 

But I do have to add Albert Einstein -- not just a great scientist, but a great thinker generally, a great humanitarian and a great man.

 

Teddy Roosevelt was in many ways a great man, but in many other ways a hack politician and blustering taker-of-credit where no credit was due. But I think he did awaken the country to the need for what was then called "conservation of natural resources," and for that alone I would put him on the list. (And politics-watchers please note, he was a Republican.)

 

In somewhat the same vein as Vaclav Havel and Lech Walesa, the name of Nelson Mandela also belongs. He did not have a spotless record in his pre-government years, but it's tough being a revolutionary. He was, amazingly in my view, able to pull together a large and diverse country that could easily have dissolved into chaos, as it was threatening to do when the white government was transitioning out of power. Compare South Africa to neighboring Zimbabwe, where dictatorship and civil war have followed the end of colonial rule and continue to this day. Mandela also stepped aside in a peaceful democratic transition of power, a rarity in Africa.

 

If the list can include sports figures, although this might be controversial, I think Muhammed Ali belongs on the list. He was not just a great athlete, but in my opinion a great man, in contrast to many of the great athletes of today, for example I would not put someone like Tiger Woods on the list, though he is seen by some others as a role model for youth.

 

Going to the world of entertainment (but not too far from politics), I would add John Lennon. "We're only trying to get us some peace."

 

I hesitate to say this, but there is one name previously mentioned that I would not put on the list as an exemplar for youth. Just as I expected someone (and it turned out to be Rooster) to mention Ronald Reagan, it should not surprise regular readers that I would not have him on my list. I don't want to get into a political argument, though.

[Quixote]

In no particular order:

 

Ronald Reagan - for ending the cold war

 

Anwar Sadat - for making peace

 

Ghandi- for making peace

 

Churchill - for succeeding after abysmal failure early in his career (he was lord of the admiralty and when captain of a ship actually ran it aground)

 

Roosevelt (all three of them) Teddy for starting the U.S. parks, Franklin for his leadership in the war and Eleanor for her leadership through her husband.

 

Truman - for making the tough decisions

 

Kennedy - for inspiring his and future generations.

 

Thatcher - for leading her country in the Cold War.

 

Mother Teresa for self sacrifice and good works

 

Amelia Erheart - for pioneering womens' aviation

 

Barbara Jordan - First black congresswomen from the south.

 

Sandra Day O'Connor - First woman appointed to U.S. Supreme Court

 

Rosa Parks - for not giving up!

 

Sally Ride - First woman astronaut - she was on Challenger.

 

YIS

Quixote

 

[tdyer56]

How about each and every one of the Scouters that have given freely of thier time to lead and teach the boys that will someday lead us. While it is important to remember the well known heros and leaders....let us not forget those who do it on a day to day basis such as each one of you that is active on this board.

 

Tim Dyer

[slontwovvy]

How about Nelson Mandela, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize and advocate for human rights everywhere?

 

Or Albert Schweitzer, great humanitarian and doctor?

 

Jonas Salk, for perseverance and forging bravely ahead into previously uncharted territories.

 

Woodrow Wilson, for pushing peace even if it cost him his career.

 

Teddy Roosevelt, who had the forsight to preserve millions of acres of land for nature, even though it was not all that popular with many at the time.

[NJCubScouter]

Quixote says:

 

Sally Ride - First woman astronaut - she was on Challenger.

 

When I first read this I thought you were saying that she died in the Challenger disaster, which would not be correct. Now that I look at it again, that may not be what you were saying. It is literally correct that she was on Challenger, twice in fact -- her first flight in 1983 and again in 1984. After Challenger was destroyed she served on the commission investigating the tragedy.

 

And she definitely does belong on the list, thank you for mentioning her. It seems that until your post we had forgotten about pioneers in space and aviation (except for Amelia Earheart.) We could add Charles Lindbergh, Chuck Yeager, Alan Shepard, John Glenn, Edward White, Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, James Lovell and others. (I know Glenn is an Eagle Scout, probably some of the others are also.) And if we don't mind having Soviet Communist functionaries on the list, we also could add Yuri Gagarin, Valentina Tereshkova and Alexei Leonov -- the first man in space, first woman in space and first space-walker, respectively.

[CubsRgr8]

Great topic, it really got me thinking. There is one person, and one person alone, who must be put at the top of the list of American heros of the 20th century - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Holding true to the principles of "all men are created equal" and of non-violent protest, he put the civil rights movement on the right track and ultimately paid for his convictions with his life. Thankfully, through his leadership, our country is much closer to living out an important ideal which the Founding Fathers envisioned over 225 years ago, a country where people are judged not by the color of their skin or any other physical attribute, but by the quality of their character. I'm holding my last Pack Meeting next Friday night and I thought I had it all planned out, but now I've got to rework the ending. Thank you eisely for starting this thread and thank you Scouter Network for hosting this forum.

[Rooster7]

NJCubScouter,

 

I agree with most of the folks on your list. It's not totally surprising that we disagree on Reagan (although, I'll never understand why people will not give him credit). His list of accomplishments seem endless.

 

I am surprised to see John Lennon's name. I see his accomplishments as follows:

 

Belonged to a great rock n' roll band

 

Sang idealistic songs about world peace (which is not a bad thing, but certainly had no chance of changing the world). Although, his lyrics did insult most of the world's faiths (Imagine that).

 

Spent weeks in bed with his wife (for some unexplainable reason...well, besides the obvious one common to all men)

 

His life had a tragic end. But there's no way I can envision him as a great leader...

 

Now, Muhammed Ali I can get behind. He inspired his people, uplifted the country, and set a great example for all. Although he refused to serve, I think even most conservatives appreciate the fact that he did not run. My only criticism is his remarks concerning the Vietnam war, which I feel needless injected race into the picture.

 

Its Trail Day,

 

Amen - to your nomination of John Wayne. Some probably laugh at his name being on this list. Yet, how many men (through his movies) has he inspired to "do the right thing"....same reason why I like Jimmy Stewart so much.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[OldGreyEagle]

 

Speaking of John Wayne, I have used this to good effect for Court's of Honor and closing ceremonies

 

http://www.users.fast.net/~shenning/quotes.html#anchor161351

[buffalo2]

Ya know, it's a fine thing to draw our boy's attention to the lives and works of famous people. But did anybody notice their eyes glazing over? They're missing the connections between these world figures and their own lives.

Maybe I'm working a little out of context, but can see a value in staying a little closer to home and dealing with some real folks and issues. You can start at your local fire department or even an American Legion post. You could mention the people that visit the terminally ill in our hospitals. You might be surprised at how many people and groups ended up in New York City last September crawling through piles of rubble.

I think it's perhaps more important that our Scouts understand that we all have opportunities to set good (and not so good) examples to others, and that we all can contribute at whatever place in life we find ourselves at.

And yes, that can be tough to get across sometimes...