A better question

[Rooster7]

I always find myself concerned about the Cub Scout who belongs to a two-dad or two-mom family, whe then sees his parents marginalized, turned into second class citizens w/in a Pack.

 

Marginalized? If BSA considers the behavior to be immoral, why would these "dads" or "moms" expect to be solicited and utilized by the pack or troop? If their son notices this fact, there isn't much one can do. The pack or troop is simply following their convictions. They believe the "dads" and "moms" in your example are improper role models. This belief is backed up by BSA policy.

 

Homosexuals, who enroll children in the program, shouldn't expect members to change their views on homosexuality. It's sad that a child might suffer, but it's the "parents" who are creating this situation. The two "dads" or two "moms" should not expect to feel welcomed.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I think it was the Romans who first commented, "See how these christians love one another..." I thought that meant everyone, not just likeminded indivuduals

 

I thought the BSA policy was we respected everyone regardless of anything they believe, dont believe, sexual oritentation, etc. We do ask that they respect our ability to set our membership requirements.

 

Making someone fell unwelcome is not respect and is not scoutlike.

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

Making someone feel unwelcome is not respect and is not scoutlike.

 

OGE,

 

First, there is a difference between "making someone feel unwelcome" and "not making someone feel welcomed". Perhaps you see no difference, but I feel it is significant. Your statement is proactive. It implies that I am endorsing the persecution of these "parents". My statement was passive. I was simply saying I find it very understandable if folks did not make an effort to make these parents feel welcomed (particularly in this setting).

 

Do you make everyone feel welcome under every circumstance? If you believe someone is immoral or not scoutlike, do you invite him or her to become an ASM? If you believed someone is promoting immoral behavior, do you ask that person to monitor your children? When I said, they "should not expect to feel welcomed"; I meant it in terms of people seeking their involvement. I assumed that members of this forum would read my comments in context with littlebillie's most recent post.

 

I think it was the Romans who first commented, "See how these Christians love one another..."

 

Interestingly, my last post does not mention religion, much less Christianity. OGE, I have to ask, how welcomed do you think you make most Christians feel with comments such as these?

 

[llwyn]

Merlyn,

Thanks for your patience - I was really tired last night. You said to read your post again and I did and I noticed that you said it differently the second time.

First...

>Let's say a kid wants to join a cub scout unit chartered by his public school; he knows that his public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, so he assumes the 'god' part is optional. When he makes the promise to join (along with 5 other kids), he omits the god part, and nobody notices. Sound possible?

Then...

>Nope; read it again. A scout troop chartered by a public school can't exclude atheists, and (in this case), the kid thought that the 'god' part was optional, just as it's optional in the pledge of allegiance.

 

Is it OK to answer the second one, assuming it's what you would have said before? Let me try ...

 

It is not true that a cub pack chartered by a public school cannot exclude atheists {although it is true that the public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, as you said in your first post}.

 

When any institution charters a pack, they must agree to the declaration of religious principle. If they choose not to expend any resources defending that broad and [almost] encompassing statement, they should not charter a unit. As of our discussion, however, while it is not legal to discriminate in the classroom, it is legal to discriminate in the pack, after school.

 

IMHO, that won't last long. I think that the days of cub scouts meeting at a school are fading. I think that's what happened to Exploring. Exploring is over with Learning for Life because Police Posts, etc. don't have to fret because they don't have to disallow atheists (or gays for that matter). Schools probably will just not charter because they don't want the hassle. In fact, the atheists may never actually have to win that fight in court because the schools will just dwindle to nothing as chartering institutions. Kinda sad.

 

As for the Council, no I don't "consider it dishonest for a BSA council to charter a cub scout troop to a public school?" But that's because I take issue with your proposition that because schools can't discriminate in school, they necessarily can't discriminate in scouts. They can, and the Council knows they can, and if they are willing to subscribe to the declaration of religious principles, they should. What would be dishonest Merlyn, would be a pack subscribing to the religious angle and then ignoring it or not even warning the poor little atheist kid [who may not be so devious as I have accused him of being - he is after all, just a kid]. A Scout is Trustworthy [#1] and A Scout is Reverant [#2].

And a Scout is everything in between - that is the Law.

 

I am a member of a conservative protestant denomination and I attend a small church that is just getting started. We worship on Sunday in the cafeteria of an elementary school. There is nothing illegal being done, but I'm sure that my pastor would not serve communion to a buddhist [or an atheist for that matter]. Of course the school does have a legal obligation to prevent my pastor from preaching on Monday to a school full of kids!

 

YiS,

llwyn

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

>It is not true that a cub pack chartered by a public school cannot exclude atheists {although it is true that the public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, as you said in your first post}.

 

Sorry, now you aren't even being consistent. if it's illegal for a public school to exclude atheists, running a cub scout pack doesn't make it legal somehow.

 

>When any institution charters a pack, they must agree to the declaration of religious principle. If they choose not to expend any resources defending that broad and [almost] encompassing statement, they should not charter a unit.

 

Sorry, this doesn't make it legal, it makes it an illegal and unenforcable agreement.

 

>As of our discussion, however, while it is not legal to discriminate in the classroom, it is legal to discriminate in the pack, after school.

 

Not by the public school, it isn't. It's still public money being spent, and it's still a public school running a youth group. It can't practice religious discrimination, period.

 

Using your logic, it would be legal for a public school to run a "whites only" youth group.

[Bob White]

Maybe this is part of what establishes the legality of the BSA membership rules, it is our constitutional right. At least that was the judgement of the US Supreme Court. Even the The American Civil Liberties Union aknowledges the BSA'a right to meet on public property and excercise its legal right to determine its own membership. In fact the courts and the ACLU agree that to not allow a scout unit on public property is illegal.

 

Just a thought,

Bob White

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Apparently, people STILL can't read what I write; while I keep talking about public schools CHARTERING scout units, other people respond as if I'm talking about scouts meeting in schools.

 

It's the difference between a whites-only organization meeting in school (legal), vs. a whites-only organization run by a public school (illegal).

[Bob White]

There is nothing illegal about chartering a legal organization.

 

You are welcome to dislike it but that does not change the fact that it is legal.

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, from all the you have written exchanged I beleive you have shown yourself and/or declared yourself to be a Christian whose faith in the bible is unshakable. If I am wrong about this, I apologize up front. It's hard not to think of your Christian right wing leanings whenever I read any of your posts. And maybe I was snippy with my "see how these Christians love one another" comment but I have to make an observation. When issues of punishment and discipline come up on this forum, it does seem many avowed Christians are the ones who want to do a lot of booting out of the program, setting expectations beyond BSA requirements and have no patience for a troubled boy. It seems like the more "committed" the Christian is, the less tolerance is shown. How do I think Christians fell if I offend them? I guess I could say that I thought they were supposed to turn the other cheek, but that would be snippy as well.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I am going to take a stab at this and I have no idea if I will be succesful. What merlyn is talking about is not whether scout troops can meet in a public school or any public place for that matter what he is talking about is whether or not any governmental unit can CHARTER a scouting unit. These are two different concepts. A scouting unit is allowed to meet on public grounds (school, firehall, community center, etc) as long as that place is open to other groups as well.

 

The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit. In this example I will say a Cub pack. As a CO the school will be responsible for appointing leaders. I can see that this responsibilty is in direct conflict with the separation of church and state principle. How can the "school" select leaders who are heterosexual and suscribe to belief in God when the school cant discriminate against homosexuals and atheists?

 

As an afterthought, why would we want Public Schools in particular to charter scouting units? Given the amount of social engineering that goes on in the public school system why would we want these people running scout units? This forum spent a lot discussing the impact the LDS church has on the program, why would we want Schools, the centers of political correctness, to run scout units? I would think we would want to decrease public school involvement in scouting, not continue or incease it.

[llwyn]

Wait a minute. I do read what you write and what you are writing, I believe, is confusing. Are Merlyn and Old Grey Eagle [OGE] saying that it is illegal for the school to charter a pack? Is that so? What state, what case law, what court has held this to be the law of the land. Please tell me what you mean and back it up with some facts so that we can check it out and then come back and apologize for not believing you.

 

Another question, inferred from the first is, who does hold the charter? The PTA?

 

First you talk about the fairness of it all, in a case where the unit IS chartered to a public school ...

 

Merlyn:

"Let's say a kid wants to join a cub scout unit chartered by his public school; he knows that his public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion, so he assumes the 'god' part is optional. When he makes the promise to join (along with 5 other kids), he omits the god part, and nobody notices. Sound possible?"

 

Then you go on about how all this is ILLEGAL...

 

Merlyn:

"It's the difference between a whites-only organization meeting in school (legal), vs. a whites-only organization run by a public school (illegal)."

 

Or whether or not you CAN charter...

 

OGE:

"The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit."

 

So what are we talking about?

 

NJCubScouter [May 2nd @ 9:19:19 AM]:

"Should membership in the Boy Scouts (youth and adult) be limited to those who believe the Bible (meaning both the Old and New Testaments of the Christian Bible) is infallible?"

 

To which everyone replied no, eg...

 

Rooster7 [may 2nd 11:14:04]:

"No, belief in the Bible is not required. A Scout is free to believe in whatever faith he so desires. I don't think anyone in this forum ever suggested otherwise."

 

And I think it finally fell into this crazy discussion about atheists. Let me be plain, my scouting friends, it's about "duty to God", and "A Scout is Reverent." An atheist recognizes neither proposition as valid.

 

llwyn

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

But OGE, the US government charters the BSA, military bases all over the world charter scout units, we hold our national Jamborees on government property.

 

Remember also it is not the school but the PTO, the parents of the community, who charter the troop or pack. It is not the Principal who is the Charter Organization head it is the volunteer president of the PTO.

[OldGreyEagle]

The president of the PTA could possibly be both an atheist and gay, there is no guarantee they wont be one or the other, why put them in charge of selcting scouting unit leadership? What happens when one of a "two daddy" or "two mommy" family becomes president?

 

or and ll

 

"The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit."

 

EXACTLY!

 

I dont think its a good idea for schools to charter scouting units.

 

Bob, I know governmental units charter troops, such as the one Koreascout is in. The issue is since our government cant dicriminate based on religion ( or lack thereof) how can a governmental unit select leaders based on a discrimintory basis (one I happen to agree with)

 

I know the Naitonal Jamboree is held on military ground, but BSA is not the only organizaiton that used military bases for various events.

 

[Bob White]

OGE, you said "The president of the PTA could possibly be both an atheist and gay," that is true of any charter organization head.

 

Remember the CO head is not a member of scouting. They must agree to select members who meet the BSA membership requirements, and to operate the program according to scouting, but since they themselves are not members of the BSA they are not personally held to the scouting standards.

 

If they do not agree with those standards that's OK. No law requires them to sponsor a scout unit. But, as a Mom Mom couple, they are not restricted from being a CO head, they could not however be a COR or other registered member of the BSA.

 

You wrote "I dont think its a good idea for schools to charter scouting units." They don't. The PTO or other neighborhood parents group sponsors the unit, not the school. There is a difference. A public school is not a community organization and is subject to different laws and restrictions than the PTO is.

 

The unit meets at the school that is is supported by the the parents organization. The unit has a legal right to do so.

 

Bob White

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Bob, you are right, all of the scouting units I have been asociated with have been church run so the question of religious principle never came up and so far neither has the gay issue. I guess the local VFW, American Legion, Lions, etc. could be run by atheist gays and those organizaitons sponsor many troops. Thats what I love about this forum, it widens my otherwise far to parachial grasp of the scouting program and the world at large.