A better question

[tjhammer]

Rooster, my last post wasn't addressed directly to you, but the shoe does fit, so I'm glad you responded to it.

 

Frankly, as I have said before, I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God. If I were you and actually believed that the Bible was divine, I would have real difficulty also saying "well what does this passage really mean, as it would seem like placing words in God's mouth. That said, any part of the Bible is circumspect in my mind. There's no hypocrisy on my part.

 

You have said quite bluntly on previous occasions that your firm belief that homosexuality is immoral is based on what God has taught you. I don't begrudge your right to that perspective, but let's observe those "lessons" more closely. The King James Bible has more than 2,000 chapters, each with between twenty and thirty verses. That's at least 50,000 verses in the Bible, and depending on who does the counting, seven or eight of these 50,000 verses possibly deal with homosexuality. And it's these same seven or eight verses that most fundamentalist hide behind or pound over the head of "non-believers". Yet if you do much research, you will find the same kinds of detailed and articulate arguments over those verses as you have found on the verses of slavery (articulate, well thought out arguments from both perspectives).evmori said: God destroyed an entire town because the men of the town were having sex with each other.Actually, the sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was rape. There was no condemnation of consensual sex, but a condemnation that the men were planning to forcibly subjugate the strangers (the angels inside Lot's house were being "called out by the men outside so that they may know them"). (Biblical reference to the word "know" is often sexual).

 

The Bible says Sodom was destroyed by God because of the violence and inhospitability that was wrought there. I wonder, if the attempted rape by the men outside Lot's house was against women, do you think the world would believe the story of Sodom was condemning heterosexuality? Or would it be just about rape?

 

 

I believe that God made man with minds -- spiritual minds -- for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God. The dogma of religion is man made. Rooster, I suspect the reason you left the Catholic Church was because there was some part of the dogma that didn't appeal to you, and you reasoned that there was another "true" church or way to God. It was acceptable for you to pick and choose what part of the dogma you wanted to believe, why is it not acceptable for others?

 

As I said once before, I'm more of a "resurrection" Christian, than a "crucifixion" Christian. I believe that Jesus told us to go out and preach the Gospel -- Good News -- rather than tell the rest of the world that it's wrong. I don't see (either in practice or in the lessons of Christ) inherent evil in homosexuality.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[llwyn]

Hello friends,

I have just returned from Scout Camp and so have been trying to catch up on my reading of this thread...

 

TJ:

Frankly, as I have said before, I don't believe the Bible is the literal word of God. If I were you and actually believed that the Bible was divine, I would have real difficulty also saying "well what does this passage really mean, as it would seem like placing words in God's mouth.

 

llwyn:

Frankly, I don't know how you can say you are a Christian [i think that was you]. In any case would you explain the above? I don't understand your point. Also, what IS your epistemology? How do you KNOW anything? That might help me understand what you are saying.

 

TJ:

I believe that God made man with minds -- spiritual minds -- for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God.

 

llwyn:

You believe that? It is false, of course, but also irrational [w/o reason]. Why do you believe that? How do you KNOW? Brother, you were given a mind to love the LORD your God with.

 

TJ:

As I said once before, I'm more of a "resurrection" Christian, than a "crucifixion" Christian. I believe that Jesus told us to go out and preach the Gospel -- Good News -- rather than tell the rest of the world that it's wrong. I don't see (either in practice or in the lessons of Christ) inherent evil in homosexuality.

 

llwyn:

And, as I have said before, I don't think you are ANY kind of Christian. I hope you have not begun to go out and preach the Gospel yet, ol' buddy, because you certainly would lead people astray. The Gospel is good news to sinners who respond, that much is true, but it will be "bad news" to those who don't - Hell ain't a pretty picture. And as for what you "see" or don't "see", that would be, uh, like, zero. You are deaf and blind - or, more accurately, you are dead. Dead in your sins and trespasses. Moreover, without that the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ renews your heart, quickens you [regenerates you] you will never "see" anything like the Truth. The Truth, TJ, is the very Jesus Christ whose name you blaspheme by taking it unto your self [calling yourself Christian] without giving Glory, Honor, Obedience, and Lordship to the King of the universe.

You want the Gospel? I don't think you do, yet, but when you are ready, e-mail me direct and I will share this bread with you with prayer and thanksgiving.

In fact, brother, the prayers are already begun.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Ed says:

 

God destroyed an entire town because the men of the town were having sex with each other.

 

Actually the people of Sodom were committing quite a number of sins with great frequency. There is one, exactly one, passage that some have interpreted to mean that there was homosexuality going on. I have read it, and different interpretations of it. The most likely interpretation that I could give... Cover your ears, kids...

 

The most likely interpretation is that what the men in the passage in question were doing was attempting to rape another man. Not quite the same thing as simple homosexuality. I don't have the citation handy, but I'm sure you do, Ed. Read it and tell me what you think. Of course, there are others who say that the passage in question in not about sex at all, but about inhospitality. I don't know... even in the Old Testament, that seems a flimsy excuse to destroy a town.

 

I can't recall God destroying an entire town because of slavery.

 

I don't know, maybe General Sherman was divinely inspired to burn down Atlanta.

 

Seriously though, in the Old Testament, of course God would not have destroyed anything over slavery, unless maybe an Israelite was enslaving another Israelite. Within the guidelines set down in the passage that I quoted earlier, slavery was perfectly acceptable to God at the time. If you believe the book of Leviticus, that is.

[tjhammer]

llwyn, you question my ability to be a "genuine" Christian, and I think you are basing that pretty much on my point that I do not believe the Bible is the literal word of God. I went back and reread my passage, and agree that I got a bit sloppy in making this point (without carefully spelling out my entire position on this specific topic as I have done in previous posts). I should not have said that I didnt believe the Bible is divine thats a bit of an oversimplification and not entirely accurate of my point of view. I do believe that the Bible is representative of God's word. I do think that it is man's evolving interpretation of God's word. But I do not believe it is infallible and the literal word of God (unless God's an editor working in the publishing industry). (I think a previous post in this thread mentioned that the Mormons rewrote their Bible as recently as 1980 to allow for blacks to be leaders in the Church... see, man's rewriting that book and bastardizing the word of God all the time).I said: I believe that God made man with minds -- spiritual minds -- for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God.

 

llwyn said: You believe that? It is false, of course, but also irrational [w/o reason]. Why do you believe that? How do you KNOW? Brother, you were given a mind to love the LORD your God with.Well, I don't understand how you KNOW my statment is false, and I can't BELIEVE it is true. I guess I would like to understand your perspective on this a bit more, which you could address to me via Private Message so as not to bore the others. But in general my response is that your point of view does not allow for ANY tolerance of ANY religion other than your own, and seems to reflect that you believe it is impossible to KNOW God unless you believe as you do. Do you really believe all other religions and even strains of your own are just lost? (I suppose the answer to that question is yes, and I suppose it is perfectly fine for you to believe that).llwyn said: Also, what IS your epistemology? How do you KNOW anything? That might help me understand what you are saying. I don't KNOW anything. I BELIEVE many things, though. I even have FAITH in some things that my BELIEF is sometimes shaky. But I certainly don't presume to KNOW anything when it comes to God. And the evolution of that belief would be as follows, I guess: I was born and raised and baptized a Baptist, then attended Methodist, Presbyterian and Christian churches as a teen. I have studied (though not formally) historical record of Christ, including the Bible and other readings. And I have observed... man relating to man. Man relating to religion. Religion relating to man. And then pondered. And formed opinion. And changed opinion. And stopped pondering because it was just too hard. And then reconsidered everything. And finally arrived where I am right at this moment, which is to say "I don't KNOW anything. I BELIEVE. And I try not to presume. Or assume. Or tell anyone that they are less holy than I.

[llwyn]

tjhammer,

As soon as I hit the submit button, I asked forgiveness from my LORD for being so obtuse and in your face. I apologize to you for any offense taken from my post.

llwyn

[llwyn]

Dear tjhammer,

Christians on this site, and even in this thread have been called hypocrites, intolerant, holier than thou [implied] and more. I have responded hastily, I know, but it is the nature of the media - neh? I mistakenly assumed that you had heard the allegory of the beggar and his bread. I am not holier than you are. I am a decrepit beggar on the street - broke & lost & hungry. A Man gives me bread which saves my life. I meet you and you are the same as me except I have bread. I tell you where to find this Man so you may be given bread as well. I am certain that I have fallen further than you and am, in fact, the very chief of sinners - that's how I know that the bread can save your life, because it saved mine and I was worse off than you.

TJ, I don't just question your ability to become a Christian, I deny it. And mine. And anyone's. It's a gift we are given by the Grace of God.

 

*I do think that it is man's evolving interpretation of God's word. But I do not believe it is...

*...for each to use in reasoning their own spirituality and relationship with God.

*I don't KNOW anything. I BELIEVE many things, though. I even have FAITH in some things that my BELIEF is sometimes shaky....

 

You think, but you do not believe; you reason, but you do not know; you don't know, but you believe, or if that's a little shaky, you have faith...

We have here, man's evolving interpretation of God's Word and man's mind being used to "reason" man's spirituality and relationship to God. Your religion is not Christian if it is not Christ centered. My contention is that you write a good post, at first glance, but that you are not reasoning at all. On the contrary, you are being irrational and the few propositions that you have managed to put together appear to be invalid. I'm not sure. So I ask.

 

I am NOT attacking you [ad hominem or otherwise].

 

Here's my question again, stated a little differently: What do you consider to be TRUTH? How can you BELIEVE something that you don't KNOW to be TRUTH? Is TRUTH for me different from TRUTH for you? If so, and they contradict each other, then ONE OR THE OTHER IS FALSE. Right?

 

I hope that was a little better, I am truly yours, in Scouting,

llwyn

 

 

[littlebillie]

"I can't recall God destroying an entire town because of slavery."

 

Or visiting 10 plagues upon a people because of homosexuality?

[BubbaBear]

I wonder what was going through Martin Luther's mind when he opposed the only Christian Church at the time...and since then, how many factions of the "Christian Church" do we have? All based on what the Bible says. If that is the case why are there so many different factions?

 

This talk of religion is all fine and well but the point that needs to be discussed is whether the BSA is creating policy weighted towards one of the three principle of the Scouting program?

[littlebillie]

"This talk of religion is all fine and well but the point that needs to be discussed is whether the BSA is creating policy weighted towards one of the three principle of the Scouting program?"

 

Maybe the point that needs to be discussed before any other is if the current policies find support in the BSA's Congressional Charter? Is that just symbolic verbiage, or does it carry real weight in any discussion like this?

 

I keep seeing references to lawyers, and I hope someone can clarify this..?

[Quixote]

TJ says I do think that it is man's evolving interpretation of God's word

 

Given this TJ and the warning of John in the book of revelation about adding to or taking away from the Word of God, how do you reconcile this? Clearly the meaning is don't change the inherent Truth and message in the bible, but evolving implies changing to me.

 

Littlebillie,

 

I would argue that the 10 plagues visited upon Egypt was a result of the Pharoh's hardened heart and refusal to obay the Word of God.

 

Bubbabear,

 

I don't see National making policy that makes one area more important than the other here. Are you suggesting some kind of religious decree has been handed out?

 

I believe an honest reading of Genesis will reveal that homosexuality was just ONE of the sins of Sodom. The passage deals with Sodomites' desire for pleasures of the flesh in all forms - homosexual as well as heterosexual.

 

Homosexuality might not be one of the Top 10 God gave to Moses on the tablets, but it is no doubt an unclean act as well as a sin of the flesh.

 

More wood for the fire...

 

Quixote

[sctmom]

God had already decided to destory Sodom before Lot had guests. God saved Lot even though he was willing to throw his virgin daughter out to the men of Sodom. Is that moral?

 

[Quixote]

sctmom writes "God saved Lot even though he was willing to throw his virgin daughter out to the men of Sodom. Is that moral"

 

Look at it in context sctmom - he was responsible for the safety of his guests which were angels of the Lord. If he allowed these depraved men to take them then he would have been as guilty as them. Instead he offered of himself (his family) to protect the messengers of God. A moral act.

 

please see John 15.13

[BubbaBear]

littlebillie-

 

You may be right...I don't know. As far as the lawyer topic, I do not have direct knowledge of that hover I venture to say the the ACLU and others are watching this forum just as the BSA and other interested parties are. This is not the sort of discussion that goes unnoticed. I have heard references to TJ and NJCubScouter as such, but I think they are much too intelligent to be lawyers!

 

Quiote-

 

I am not suggesting a "religious conspiracy". I am saying, though, that like minds think alike. I am also saying this, I have found that the professionals in Scouting are not about Scouting

(for the most part), they are about reaching the goal of Scouting in terms of funding and numbers.

 

I had applied for an Executive position in Northern Virgina several years back. The Field Director told me three things: 1) Professional Scouting cause many divorces, 2)The thing he didn't like about Scouters was that too many of them treated Scouting as if it were a religion, and 3) There was one other applicant for the job and that was a crippled woman. He wasn't leaning toward her for the position. I backed out telling him that "I was one of those Scouters whom thought of Scouting as a sort of religion" That is; you have to believe in what you actively preach.

 

Our council goes through executives like water through sieves; all on the account of money raising (I understand).

 

You cannot convince me that National won't buckle to large factions becasue those factions are $$$ to them much as depositors to a bank. That is human (not Godly) nature.

 

I hope that you are not comparing "the Word of God" with the "word of national".

 

Sodomy is a sin, plain and simple. So let me get this straight ( an honest question to all of you theologians); In order for a sinner to be saved, is he cast into hell without the chance to redeem himself (excuse me, him or her...I've been branded a sexist amongst other things), and how long does God give a person to redeem his sins or does it have to be right now?

 

My reference to the three principle spelled out is this: Are the values of Scouting determined by a person's Duty to God, his Duty to Country or Duty to Himself? Or rather is a combination of any of the two? Or is it a balance between all three?

 

 

[Rooster7]

TJ,

 

Actually, the sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was rape.

 

Yeah, I heard that one before (from some homosexuals in the paper about 10 years ago). I find it laughable that I should have to counter that argument. In regard to that verse, I will allow you to believe as you wish uncontested. So, are you going to ignore those five or six other verses? Whytoo difficult to defend? Are you going to pretend they are insignificant because the bible has so much more to say about other sins?

 

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.' Leviticus 20:13

 

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:24- 27

 

As you suggested, I left the Catholic Church because there were some doctrinal issues, which I found inconsistent with the bible. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church has the essentials down pat. I have no doubt that they are my brothers in Christ. They recognize the holiness of God. They know that Jesus is the only way. They do not deny sin when they see it.

 

As I said once before, I'm more of a "resurrection" Christian, than a "crucifixion" Christian.

 

Perhaps I am wrong about what you're trying to say with this statement. On the surface, it sounds like you're saying that you recognize God's love (and His mercy which He's willing to impart on us), but not his righteousness (and His wrath which we deserve). If so, you have plenty of company. Many self-professed Christians like to believe this. It keeps them off their knees and enables them to do as they please without guilt or shame.

 

[Quixote]

Bubba,

 

As for your statements regarding professional scouters, I'll only say that i'm not quite as pessimistic concerning their motives as you are (i don't begrudge you your opinion since it sounds like you have first hand experience, but i choose to hold out hope for their motives).

 

As far as comparing the Word of God and the policies of BSA national? In no way was i relating the two together to imply that they are the same. I was trying to find out where you're coming from inferring that national has made policies that are not balanced between Duty to God, Country and Self. Although you will notice which one comes first!

 

R7 - Amen