Question for Bob White

[ScoutParent]

Our son stayed for 2 years after the current leadership took over out of loyalty to the troop he started scouting with. He tried his best and when he had had enough he decided to transfer; never expecting a problem transferring his money. So while it wasn't planned it also wasn't a quick or easy decision on his part. While we haven't said or done anything to hurt this troop, we are still pursuing getting the money either: A. transferred or B. for him to be able to use it at the council store.

[yaworski]

"As a Scoutmaster I would never expect a parent to put the troop before what is in their childs best interest."

 

This is one of the big problems in our society today. I see every week at sporting events, parents want their kids to play because they want to see them on the field. The heck with the team, the heck with the coach's plan. My kid comes first.

 

I see the same thing going on in Scouts as well. My son shouldn't have to do patrol activities. My son shouldn't have to go camping with the troop. What do you mean that my disrpectful, rude and disruptive son isn't earning Life? He'll be behind his friends now. Give him Life or he'll quit.

 

[nldscout]

Like I said earlier, all we have heard is the one side of the story. It would be great to know where this troop is and hear the whole story. MAYBE there is a policy that this parent just didn't listen too as most do.

 

Most troops in outr area will not alllow you to take scout account money when you transfer.

[cjmiam]

Yaworski,

 

Being a team player, supporting a common goal, learning the importance of loyalty and self-sacrifice are far different than trying to save a sinking ship. It seems to me that the unit is not providing the promise of Scouting. It is every parents right to do what he or she feel is best for his or her child. Wouldnt it make sense to shop around for the best unit just like you would for a car or home? Why would anyone purposely put his or her child in a position to fail? This isnt about avoiding personal responsibility! This is about perseverance and rising to the occasion. This parent has chosen to continue on with the Scouting program and NOT give up! God bless her for her devotion to her child. Many parents would say the heck with it and their kid would never put on the Scout uniform or recite the Scout Oath again. Hooray for heroes like her that DO look out for the best interest of their children.

[Double Eagle]

cjmiam: You referred in earlier posts to go to small claims court. This troop needs help, not court, not being abandoned, there are still scouts there that don't have a parent taking them to the other troops. You mention the promise, After leaving the troop I think ScoutParent should still persue help for the troop. What's the downside if they do? The troop doesn't have any impact on the moved scout. Moving the scout is a bandaid. Not the cure. Solve the problem with the funds, and also the management of the troop. You will never please every parent. You are so quick to side with one parent. Are other scouts leaving for the same reasons. Gotta agree with nldscout and recommend ScoutParent talk (or send a letter) to the troop committee with the reasons for the move.

ScoutParent: Commissioners can help this troop. Now is the time to help the troop from afar.

(This message has been edited by Double Eagle)

[cjmiam]

Double Eagle,

 

Your courage and helpfulness is admirable. However, many parents dont have a lot of time to help one troop let alone two. Her opportunity is to help her child develop to his fullest potential NOT fix a troop.

 

I recommended filing a small claim action, because that is our countrys legal route to resolve a dispute such as this. She has gotten nowhere but most likely closer to a statute of limitations clause. I recognize the implications that type of legal action may have on a troop, however she would either win or loose by the judgment of an unbiased, professional authority (aka Judge). Everyone can have an opinion, which can often become cloudy by our own personal bias, but the law is clear (most of the time) through a judges eyes.

 

Youre right, the troop needs help, but that shouldnt be ScoutParents primary concern. I think it is unlikely that she would even be welcome to provide any advice or assistance under the current leadership and circumstances.

 

What would have been the right thing to do if there were no clear rules on individual accounts and the Scout earned the money? What would have been the Scoutlike thing to do if the leader knew full well that the Scout was continuing Scouting in another unit and there was not set of bi-laws to use as a guide in making a decision?

 

I didnt side with the parent. I sided with the kid as I have done with thousands of kids before him. He earned the money to be used for his Scouting career and it appears the unit had no policy regarding the issue. Im sorry but given those circumstances the money should be forwarded to his new unit so that he can continue his Scouting adventure. Making up rules in the middle of the game at the expense of a kid is wrong, not Scoutlike, and certainly does not further our Mission.

 

 

[Double Eagle]

cmjiam: Agreed on looking out for the son. As for individual accounts. Some problems come with that one. This seems a financial nightmare. Here's how. While it is in the bank earning interest, does the interest go to the scout or troop. Is the "account" an actual account or is it a portion of a lump sum included in the budget. What happens if the scout quits. Can the scout and/or parents give authorization for the use (at camp the scout runs out of cash and says charge it to his account?). Can the parent decide or just the scout. How will this be handled if the new troop does not have individual accounts. Parameters on what the money can be used for, such as FOS, re-registering, training, family members involvement.

I think these are issues that can arise with the accounts. I'm hoping these types are addressed in the operating guidelines (by-laws by some). Seems like a lot of issues and headaches for the committee with individual accounts. What do ya think, or how have they worked in some troops. I'm not sold on them yet.

[ScoutParent]

In this particular troop the individual scout accounts could be used for anything pertaining to scouting. For instance our son has paid for his entire uniform, every summer camp, almost every camp out, two major trips, and his books. This gives the scouts a sense of accomplishment and pride when they see how to earn their own way. When any scout transferred they transferred the account to the new troop. When a scout left scouting, the troop waited until the scout turned 18 (in case he had a change of heart and wished to return) and then the money became part of the general troop treasury. The troop treasurer kept a database of each individual account and no interest was awarded to each scout. It is simply a means to afford scouts the opportunity to earn their own way in scouting. For big trips it was required that the scout earn at least 60% themselves.

 

Just to clarify--we aren't "taking" our son anywhere. The decision to transfer was his and we didn't disagree with it. He has been in scouts since 1st grade and been a member of one cub pack, and now this is his second troop. He has always loved scouting and takes it very seriously. If the troop was no longer suiting his needs I see no reason to hold him back from going to one that will.

[evmori]

If the Troop said the funds stay whether it is in writting or not and the CO is backing them up, then it seems you are fighting a loosing battle. It also sounds like the SM has an axe to grind.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[RickJ]

Very interesting topic.

Our troop also have a need for a written set of rules. We have always said the money belongs to the troop, but the scout can spend his individual earnings for scout related activities. Now we have a scout asking to spend the money for a computer or tools since there are "merit badges" that can be earned using them. We have said no to these requests, and indicated the money can be spent for uniforms, camping supplies, etc.

 

I have been asked to present a written draft to our Troop Committee. I have also spent a great deal of time searching BSA resources for "official policies" only to reach this extended chain, and discover we are all on our own.

 

Here are a couple thoughts:

Most of our troop fundraisers involve many parents, as well as the scouts. Usually, these fundraisers require one or two leaders to take vacation time from work to run a chicken-Q or Pancake Breakfast. I am not sure I would be comfortable with having donated my vacation time, only to see the funds raised go to another troop.

 

On the other hand, I would like to see the "scout" stay involved in scouting, so would probably recommend a split of the money involved.

 

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

If any of you have a "draft" of policies, I would like to get a copy. Thanks for reading.

[sctmom]

My son's troop has scout accounts. The BIG fundraiser of the year is for the troop. If enough money is made, each scout earns something like $1.00 per hour they worked on the fundraiser. Each family member or other person they can get to work also earns them a dollar an hour. There is always the possibility you will not get the dollar per hour if the fundraiser is not successful enough.

 

Any scout who sells popcorn gets all of the proceeds from that to go to their personal account. If the scout leaves for any reason, they must request the money if they want it. After 6 months, it will be put in the needy scout fund for anyone who can't pay the yearly fees, etc. While in the troop he can use this money for scouting equipment (must produce a receipt) or summer camp. Most boys use it for summer camp.

 

This troop has a good yearly fundraiser and can afford to have scout accounts. I can see where a troop may not decide not to have the individual accounts if the troop needs money to run. It takes a lot to run a troop with awards and equipment.

 

Too bad the troop that ScoutParent is dealing with will not try to at least compromise. If they don't have the cash, they should be honest and say so. If they have changed their policy since other scouts have left, they should say so. That would be the "adult" thing to do in my opinion.

[littlebillie]

here, again, seems to be another area where there IS some room for local practice, for standards set by the CO or the Troop.

 

seems like the BSA is not as uniform across all areas as has been stated...

[evmori]

The BSA is uniform in this. They have no policy! They expect each unit will use good judgement in dealing with fundraiser profits. And from what I have read, most units do.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dwightc]

Well, this is quite a long thread, full of very interesting opinions and far too much vitriol for my tastes, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth...

 

First, we have to take a few things for granted (as we only have one side of this, which I currently have no reason to find dishonest):

* The troop has several fundraisers, one of which is designated to maintain troop resources, the remainder devoted to building "accounts" for boys' Scouting-related needs

* Past practice has allowed Scouts to take funds with them when moving to other Scouting units, with drop-outs' funds reverting to the troop treasury (apparently when the boy reaches 18, with funds until that date held in escrow)

* The troop has experienced changes which the Scout in question found not conducive to his Scouting experience - he attempted to change what he considered wrong from the inside, deciding to move to another troop that better fulfilled his needs when his attempts failed

* His parents backed him in his decision, and did not attempt to unduly sway him one way or the other

* The troop appears to be moving away from the ideals of Scouting as espoused by the BSA (run by the Scouts with assistance and guidance by the adults)

* Adult leaders, at many levels, have been less than helpful in working with the boy and/or his parents to date in working out the various problems

 

Given the above, I have some real problems with what many of you are saying.

 

It is NOT wrong for a boy to move to another unit that works better for him than the one he is in - the only alternative is for the boy to leave Scouts altogether...is that what anybody wants? We're not talking about somebody upset because he didn't get to perform a flag ceremony or something, we're talking about a troop failing to give the boy what he feel he needs to further himself as a Scout. Add to that the distinct possibility that the troop may be failing to adhere to its own charter. Perhaps there are a few misunderstandings comingled here, but if the SMs wife is performing duties not within her - or any other adult's - scope (is she even registered as a leader?), that would be an indication of some real problems. I've noted other problems as well...

 

There are also several assumptions that the parents and/or Scout were informed of a change in procedure regarding the handling of accounts in the event of a transfer, but chose not to listen or flat-out ignored the message. Folks, that's assuming a lot, and it presumes that the family involved is dishonest in some way or another. Everyone here knows that there are folks that are self-serving and will stop at nothing to further their own cause, but I have read nothing here that would make me assume such in this case. Here is a boy that has been a Scout since he was in the 1st grade and wants to continue and grow - I see absolutely nothing wrong in that, do you?

 

Families leave Scouting far too often, and sometimes it's because of things that can't be helped by anybody outside of those families. But when it involves something that is caused by Scouting itself, we need to fix it. I would hope that wouldn't include lawsuits, protests or bad press, as that will, in the long run, only cause harder feelings with all involved, and the likely outcome would be a dark cloud hanging over the Scout, deserved or not. Perhaps the first step (assuming failure at the unit level) should have been contact with the Unit Commissioner to try to iron things out - this should have been the first suggestion made by anybody at district and/or council.

 

As it seemingly now stands, I would have to assume that the Scout will not get his money. That's a shame, if it is indeed owed him, but it should be a learning experience for everyone. The troop should learn that they need to make everything clear to everyone just what their policies are and stick to those policies - if there are no written policies, they must adhere to any precedence that has been set until such time as a written policy, changing such handling and known to all, is set. The boy should learn that everything is not always as it seems, and that sometimes things won't work out as one might hope - I would hope that distrust is not one of the lessons, but it might be hard to avoid in this case. I would also hope that the parents would learn to be even more involved that they may be - while it sounds as though these folks were doing their utmost, perhaps even that wasn't enough...

 

Sorry to be so long-winded - I just find this whole situation to be sad and hope that we all learn from it.

[ScoutPerson]

The Troop in mention is from PA and I was involved in starting the new Troop that ScoutParents son wants to join. I personally was thrown out of the Troop with my Committee Chairman and several others when we had a disagreement within the adult leadership over 3 years ago when we had a new Father replace the old one at our Catholic Church. At this time a new COR was appointed and the new COR removed me along with anyone that disagreed with him much more details then I feel like typing and it is best summed up as a mess.

 

The general fund at that time had over 30k in funds with over 15k in individual scout accounts and 30-40k of fairly new equipment. We were the best troop in council and always won honor troop at summer camp; we were the Norman Rockwell of scouting. I spent over 11 months personally trying to get my council involved and they outright refused along with the charting organization as council stated it was the CO unit and they dont get involved in the internal workings of a troop. The Father refuses to this day to take any action and says he has appointed the COR and says he doesnt want to get involved in it.

 

My son was Life and they were starting to cheat him out of Eagle along with three of his buddies (whos parents also were fired or backed me). I finally got National BSA involved along with Governor Ridge and got several members at council fired (actually national moved them out). I was offered a charter, to shut me up and was told to move on, which has now been over 3 years ago. I hated to walk away, but thats what I did with my son and his three buddies. The membership went from 51 to 47 and at that time it looked like only 4 disgruntled parents were taking their sons and moving on. They also spun the story to everyone making people think I was the problem and Im sure that ScoutParent was just one of the many that really thought she was staying with a great troop because at that time we were the best in council. Wed done Sea Base, Philmount, Hiked Yellowstone, canoed Canada, hiked Alaska, hiked the Oregon Trail, traveled the Badlands, toured DC, summer camped someplace different each year, and had monthly campouts with it all be scheduled, planned, and run by the youths. They had lots of money and equipment and many were glad to see me go.

 

At the last committee meeting, of that troop before my son quit, I was promised they would transfer any boys account as we had always done for over 30yrs. Also, the committee agreed to give me 10k of the general fund to help buy equipment as my son and his 3 friends and parents could be tracked to contributing over 60% of the 30k. We were being forced to leave over 10yrs hard work which we helped built from a unit with junk equipment with less than $500.00 and they wanted to humor me and just get me to leave.

 

At this time I still had enough influence so they wrote the check for all 4 boys, but only had 5k of the 10k available without cashing a CD. They said they would cash the CD and pay the rest; scouts honor as I recall. Supposedly they then called an emergency meeting, sometime after that, and changed the rules stopping the additional $5,000.00 and any scout account transfers. They also tried to cancel the check they gave me but it was too late as I was at the bank when it opened and they were 15 minutes late as I was depositing the cash as they called.

 

Three years later, with a lot of work, Ive got nearly 100 kids active and were winning every award possible, just hiked Hawaii (Island of Kauai) and are hiking Alaska in two years. Im now running a Cub Pack, Troop, and Crew and we have the highest Eagle % rate and advancement rate in council and the lowest dropout rate. And my Crew is the only Crew with females (in council) and I had the first bronze awarded to a female in Pa. When I left that unit I was bitter, but my Committee Chairman always reminded me to focus on succeeding and that is what I've done. Theyve spent three years bad mouthing me, toilet papering my house, spray painting my fence with foul language, writing over 107 letters to council complaining, and sending me hate mail. I even had to hire a lawyer to serve several with slander charges along with having to get a restraining order on their COR.

 

Someone said there are no Norman Rockwell Troops, well I disagree. I had one before, and now three years later I have another. ScoutParent, along with others, were not willing to take a risk on a new unit as it is hard to believe what appeared to be such a strong unit would change that much. Also, many did not realize who did all the work for those trips and what's actually involved in running a strong unit. Ive divorced myself from being concerned about what they do but they are a unit that is struggling and will continue to struggle until their leadership changes. ScoutParent is telling you the truth and shes being nicer than I would be about it. They seem to be holding the kids back because theyre afraid that once they get Eagle theyre going to leave. Since ScoutParents son joined Ive had 2 more join this week and one boy has everything done for Eagle including the project etc.; the scoutmaster refuses to signoff on the scoutmaster conference because he doesnt think he shows enough scout spirit.

 

Oh, and my committee chairman is also the district commissioner now too and nobody can get them to change as they hide behind its their charter and the Father hides behind its the committees job and he wont get involved. Yes, a scoutmaster conference for any rank is at least an hour long sometimes there are several as they grill the kids on everything from Scout to the Rank theyre going for. Once signed off, the board of review is a skill drill assessment too lasting at least an hour. I hope ScoutParent gets her sons money, but the only way thats going to happen is for her to take them to court.