Question for Bob White

[cjmiam]

What about "throwing them in the most mosquito infested, slimy, latrine-connected swamp imaginable"? lol...

[ScoutParent]

Was definitely colorful imagery that gave me quite amusing mental pictures. Can't say we haven't thought some similiar thoughts.

[FScouter]

When a boy leaves the troop, is it fair for him to take with him a slice of the troop pie?

 

The troop operates as a unit, a team, a group of boys and leaders. It is the troop that plans a program, the troop that plans a money earning event, the troop that procures the equipment, the troop that pays for the costs of the outing. The boy worked hard, to be sure. They all worked hard together to pay their own way. But did each individual boy work hard solely to benefit himself, or as part of a team to benefit his troop?

 

The funds earned by the troop from a troop money earning event belong to the troop, for the benefit of the troop. Part of what we teach our boys is that together we can accomplish great things. How can we do that if the mantra is me instead of we?

 

If the boy wants to sue to take his part of the troop treasury, he may as well sue to take his part of the troop equipment too.

 

Just a thought.

 

[cjmiam]

I think individual Scout accounts are much different than the troop's general operating account. It is much like a checking account just for Scouting stuff. I don't know the details, but my guess is that the troop already took a percentage or tax if you will or else they might conduct special troop fundraiser on the side. Many Scouts (at least in my troop) are motivated by the fact that they get back what they put into it. If they hit the neighborhood hard with popcorn they can make up to $200, others make about $10. Something just doesn't sit right when I hear that a Scout gets taken for a ride after years of hard work. The kid isn't asking to take a part of the troop with him, but instead that which he earned.

[ScoutParent]

FScouter,

 

Of course the scenario you describe would not be right but that is not the situation. Time and time again we were told there was only ONE TROOP FUNDRAISER per year--all the rest were for the scouts to raise money for their accounts to fund their uniforms, camp outs, trips, etc. At no time did they say for activities sponsored by this troop. At no time did they give us a set of rules that indicated that was the case. We would not ask for the portion of the troop treasury that he contributed but that is NOT the situation. So yes, each boy worked hard on these particular fund raisers to benefit themselves! On the troop fundraiser each boy worked hard to benefit the troop!

 

 

[ScoutPro]

What Im hearing here is ScoutParents sons troop has a general fund for equipment etc. and they also allow the scout to keep a portion (set by the committee I would assume) of fundraisers to be used by that scout only. These are what weve all called scout accounts for years and is what many in my council have; this is what many believe is the best way to run a troop. For example, the profit from the first $200 of popcorn goes to the general fund and any profit from sales greater than $200 goes to the boys account. So, ScoutParents son sold $1,000 in popcorn. $70 goes to the troop (assumes 35% profit) and $280 is for the boys account. This is to clearly benefit the scout and not the troop.

 

Now, what do you all feel is the proper use of this money when the boy leaves this unit and goes to another unit clearly to continue scouting? What about this:

 

1. The scout is a member of the OA and the scout wants to spend his money on an OA activity. This is clearly not a troop activity, should he not be allowed?

2. The scout joins the Sea Scouts, Venture Scouts, Varsity Scouts, etc, and wants to camp with them too. Should he not be allowed to use these monies for these activities?

3. What about equipment?

4. What about uniforms?

5. What about offsetting the cost of an Eagle Ceremony?

6. The scout joins another troop and continues scouting there?

 

The question here is ScoutParents son has money set aside in a scout account that was to be used by him for scouting. Now he has joined a different unit, which should be easy to verify, and he is continuing his career and from what ScoutParent has said, the committee refuses to award to his new unit the funds that he earned. Also, the CO and Council refuse to step in and help. Why? Why? Why? This sounds too bizarre to me, and if it is true then this CO has no business chartering a scout troop period.

 

Again, if this was you at your work and it was money you earned and put into a 401k plan would you not sue if they refused to give you the portion you clearly earned?

 

 

[FScouter]

Boy accounts are all well and good. They need to be managed according to written rules or guidelines. In the absence of written bylaws, or a written parent guide or such, there really is no agreement or contract.

 

So it was the parent's understanding that the boy could keep the earnings. And apparently it is the troop's understanding that the funds stay with the troop. There is a disagreement. Maybe the troop is sloppy in the way it handles things. That doesn't make their actions fraudulent.

 

How about if the parent would volunteer to write up a set of policies or rules? That would be something constructive, and would help future parents in the same predicament. Suing is so negative and non-productive.

[cjmiam]

Suing may be perceived as negative, but that is not the Scouts fault. Your description of the situation is a perfect example of why an outside arbiter is necessary. This is a good example of why we have our court system. This is the same orderly fashion that we teach in the Scouting program when we disagree with our laws. We do not disobey them, but instead work to have them changed in a lawful and orderly fashion.

 

The parent believes her son has been unfairly deprived of money that is his. The unit believes differently. The alleged injustice has already been done. I am sure that the troop has taken steps to make sure this does not happen again, but that is beside the point. If the matter cannot be resolved privately, our laws clearly show what course of action the plaintiff may pursue. Following our countrys laws is not negative or un-productive. Dismissing this as if it never happened just because it deals with Scouting or people that really meant to do the right thing is NOT right.

 

Oh but their just volunteers- they are really good people at heart is not an excuse.

 

But think about the harm youre going to do... Im sure the Catholic Church said the same thing a few years ago

[Bob White]

cjmiam,

The law says the money belongs to the chartering organization. This is an unfortunate situation and definitely poor management on the committee's part, but to compare it to the sexual abuse of children borders on the irresponsible.

 

Bob White

[ScoutParent]

To blithely answer that there is no contract or that the money belongs to the charter organization indicates that you haven't understood the situation. Let's start out again--when our son joined the troop there was a different set of leadership in place. We were told then and repeatedly throughout his tenure with the troop that the money he earned on each fund raiser, except one specific one per year, was to placed in an account for his scouting needs. At no time was it indicated that these needs would only be honored as long as they were with the troop in question. Since that time any boy that has transferred to another troop has transferred their money as well. We were never given a set of written rules and certainly never any rule changes. It was repeated over and over and over again that these fund raisers were for the individual scout to earn money for uniforms, camping, trips, etc. Then our son decides to transfer and suddenly they are making a policy that he can not transfer his money. If you find this acceptable then I ask you to look into your own hearts and ask yourselves what is the purpose of scouting and what are you hoping to teach boys through scouting.

 

This money represents hours in the cold selling items, waking in the middle of the night to take a shift at another fund raiser, cold calling door to door for others, this is hours and hours of work and was on the basic premise that he would be able to use it for his scouting needs. What good purpose would the Charter organization or the troop have for withholding this from a boy that wishes to continue in scouting. Please don't respond with the pat answer of "because they can" It certainly doesn't portray Scout leadership in a positive light. I would like to know what good intentions a troop or committee or charter organization would have to with hold this money from a scout who simply feels a different troop would address his scouting needs more effectively.

[ScoutPro]

ScoutParent,

 

Theres suppose to be no secret societies within your scouting organization so why does the committee not have written policies? Just a question, also whats the issues with your son transferring while youve said others have? Here are some questions:

 

1. Are they afraid of losing others therefore theyre holding monies as a means to holding membership?

 

a. Has there been a mass exiting of youths leaving for other units? If so why?

 

2. Have others transferred to the same troop your son is transferring to if so, did these other scouts get their funds and if so how? If not why not?

 

3. I also read in another thread that you asked about a BOR or SM conference and you thought your son was being grilled (I believe for Life?); this leads me to believe your son is out of favor with the troop. Can one assume that this is now personal?

 

4. Whats the relationship between troops within your council; cannot your new unit possibly help resolve the issue?

 

a. Troop leadership usually gets along therefore, SM to SM normally should be able to resolve this; hopefully they act like adults.

 

[nldscout]

Our troop policies on scout accout's like this are very defined and clear. If the scout leaves the unit for any reason the money in the account is returned to the Troop general fund. We have never had a problem as we give each new scout and parent a copy of our policy letter.

 

Our philosphy is the money was earned with our troop sponsorship and assistance and is to be used for troop related scout activities.

[Bob White]

ScoutParent,

I hope you understand from my original response to your question of me, and by my other posts in this string, that I feel the committee has made a bad decision. I still feel that a timely face to face discussion with the committee is, or at least was, your best solution. I do not know why the committee made this decision. I agree that if their goal is to do what's in the best interest of boys this is an odd way to show it.

 

But there are scouters who I see as taking an extremist approach and immediately wanting to sue. I disagree with their approach as strongly as I disagree with the committee's.

 

 

[dan]

What I find most amusing about this is that BSA was started on a lawsuit on who could use the BSA name.

[cjmiam]

Well, actually Bob my first suggestion was small claims court. I do believe that is the perfect place for this or else take it to Judge Wopner. Im sure hed love it too. The point is that we have a place for this type of dispute to be settled lawfully. Why not use it? Sure, maybe it should be a last resort, but I believe the parent has given it her best shot and is at that stage.

 

The comparison wasnt between $500 and the sex abuse scandal. The comparison was between what some of the people seem to be suggesting on this board and what the Catholic church did- lets just forget it and sweep it under the rug... shhh don't tell anyone, we really dont want anyone to get a bad name... no we don't need the courts, we can handle this privately... come on suing is so messy and negative you don't really want to do that...