Question for Bob White

[ScoutPro]

Theres your answer than. If you can buy stuff at the scout store than go purchase $500 in equipment, since your son is Life purchase the stuff required for Eagle and some stuff for your new unit. Your new unit needs to purchase badges etc. all the time. Ask them what they need and buy it and ask them to purchase it from you when they need it putting it in is new account with his new troop (assuming they too have scout accounts). Problem solved.

[Bob White]

ScoutPro,

I am unsure of what your background or training in scouting consists of, but you have some major misconceptions. A scout unit is not "at the mercy of" the charterd organization. The unit is a youth service "of" the chatered organization. Without a charter organization there is no scouting.

 

We have had a charter with the Congress of the United States since 1916 that provides the operating structure of scouting in the U.S.A.

The BSA cannot operate units, scouting units can only exist as programs provided by local organizations. This is the way scouting has worked for 86 years.

 

Tens of thousands of scout units and millions of scouts have taken part in this program under these provisions. The vast majority without any problems of any kind. To say that this happens often is a gross overstatement.

 

Your right that if more parents were involved things like this could be avoided. But your suggestion to sue the CO is pointless. As you are aware the CO owns the unit and its assets. Your advice will only frustrate the family more without changing the outcome.

 

This is not a case of fraud but of poor communication and poor judgement. Scout units are operated by volunteers from all walks of life, the vast majority are just well meaning parents tring to do there best. Sometimes mistakes are made. That doesn't mean that a law was broken.

 

Bob White

[buffalo2]

Perhaps I'm a little simple but:

But what lesson does the Scout learn from all of this?

And what (who) are we involved in the program for again?

Understanding that we all want the best for our sons and those

that we care about; perhaps we should look a little further

down the path...

My $.02 worth

[Mike Long]

Ok fine, if y'all won't say it I will.

 

Harrassment and intimidation are not acceptable. Removing the scouting program from boys by making it impossible for their troop to operate is unacceptable. Slander and libel is unacceptable.

 

And a scouter advocating the above is also unacceptable.

 

If you really feel the need to go the legal route then consider the damage that will be inflicted on EVERYONE involved and the lessons this teaches everyone. Most importantly the boys who are quite happy with their troop as it is. Is any amount of money worth destroying a troop over? There is such a thing as diminishing returns.

 

ScoutParent have you considered asking them what if your son stays? What about asking if the money can be transferred to a friend of your son that is staying in the troop or asking that the money be used for camperships for scouts in need. Maybe a donation to the Charter Org. as a thank you for you son's years with the troop.

 

My best advice is to keep doing what you are doing. Simply making your case in a reasonable, non-threatening and polite manner again and again. You have a reasonable arguement and reasonable people will eventually see your point and work with you. I personally think it is unreasonable and unscoutlike to expect members of your unit to abide by rules that are unpublished and I would side with you in this matter.

 

You might want to ask the Committee and Scoutmaster to look in the Scout handbook and see what it says about fair play.

[ScoutPro]

Bob, youre correct. My point is the CO owns it and operates it within the BSA policy which only covers how the unit is chartered. The internal working of the troop is left to the CO. BSA will not get involved in these types of matters at any level therefore parents need to be involved and leaders need to be trained.

 

Just because these parents are volunteers does not make them immune to legal proceedings. If the committee states they allow youths to transfer funds and now do not then this is fraudulent (and before someone asks, Im a business attorney and I purse these types of cases daily). The chartering organizations reps have entered into agreement with the scout and his family. Money has exchanged hands therefore an implied contract has occurred (contract whether written or verbal). What makes this criminal (or is how I would argue it) is this contract was made with a minor. The key here is the minor; therefore they have committed a criminal act. Now this is my legal opinion which I would have to prove intent to defraud. But, when minors are involved this is easier to prove. Regardless, of criminal activity, a lawsuit to recover monies would be justified and I believe would be proven. Again, Attorneys are like doctors, ask several others for their opinion and see what they tell you.

 

Oh, yes I am BSA trained and volunteer at my local council free of charge and sit on my town board as advisor too. My advice earlier to turn-up the heat making it miserable deals with years of experience in these matters. You want someone like me to say just pay the $500 to shut them up. That would be my advice to any of my clients. Its not worth arguing over. The question in this whole scenario is whos going to blink first the CO or the parent? As far as asking the parent to just forget it is wrong unless the committee has written policy to cover themselves; the key to this is neither side can prove it. Theyve been negligent if they have not communicate the rules and whether anyone likes it or not they can be held legally liable for their action.

 

[ScoutParent]

What we have always tried to impart to our son is to live a Christian Life, be involved in your school and community, and be kind and considerate. Scouting is an extension of those ideals not the only way it is imparted. For the scouting program to be effective we think it is important to demonstrate the points we are trying to teach our children by our actions. We don't feel it is a violation of scouting to hold leadership accountable for their actions. It certainly wouldn't be the organization it is today if people were not expected to follow certain codes of conduct.

[Mike Long]

I agree completely. So far I'm with you 100%. If you need to persue legal action fine but the suggestion of protests and such sickens me.

[ScoutPro]

Yep, protesting and running it in the paper sounds sad and hopefully the threat of such action makes them think twice and willing to at least make them listen. But sadly this is my profession and what gets results when dealing with these types of situations. Do the means justify the results? I dont know. Were only hearing one side of the story and I realize this but I can sympathies with ScoutParent as in my council we dont get involved in troops and we run the other direction during these types of situations. We cannot afford not to. But, I will also tell you that if a parent makes enough stink I will advice our council to at least call and try to intervene and come to a resolution. Enough heat and our council will refuse the charter next time around to that organization.

[FScouter]

Our world would be a better place if we spent more time on constructive activities, instead of plotting infantile methods to "make a stink". I'm reminded of the three-year-old who whines and complains and throws a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way. This kind of advice is what gives attorneys a bad name. What kind of message do we send our boys when the adults play nasty?

[Bob White]

So ScoutPro If I understand you correctly... You realize that the council, by congressional charter, has no authority in these situations. So you advise the volunteers to sue, and then you advise the council to pay, and all this Pro Bono out of your heightened sense of community spirit. You must be so proud. I guess when I think of volunteerism as a way to enrich my community I have a different definition of "enrich" in mind.

 

Bob White

[cjmiam]

The kid earned it- the kid deserves to spend it in Scouting no matter what troop he decides to join. Im not for badmouthing people or causing undue shame to Scouting, but in some cases it isnt badmouthing- its called speaking the truth and it isnt undue shame, its deserved shame. This isnt about throwing a temper tantrum, this is about seeing justice done. Any Scouter or troop that keeps a Scouts money when they know that he is has earned it fairly and is continuing on in Scouting, should be thrown in the most mosquito infested, slimy, latrine-connected swamp imaginable and then sued.

 

What kind of message do we send our boys when the adults play nasty?

 

Give me a break! What kind of message do we send them when they work their butts off to pay their own way as our program teaches them, just to have some adult take it away? Some people are disgusting and they deserve a trial by their peers to have that title officially bestowed upon them. Whether they hide behind a Scout uniform or not!

 

[eagle90]

Sue the Troop! Sue the Council! Sue the leaders! Create havoc. Make it hard for the troop to survive! Come on. And some lawyers wonder why they suffer a bad reputation. I'm totally disgusted by any Scouter who would advocate this method of solving the problem. I surely don't think they have the best interests of the organization, the troop, or the boys in mind. But boy, the legal fees will mount up!!

 

This whole thing could have been avoided by just having a line saying if a scout leaves the troop all money reverts to the troop. Of course this is hindsight at this point.

[dan]

Sue the Troop! Sue the Council! Sue the leaders! Create havoc. Make it hard for the troop to survive! Come on.

YEAH COME ON! WHO WOULD THIS MAKE HARD FOR THE TROOP TO SURVIVE? HOW WOULD THIS CREATE HAVOC.

 

This whole thing could have been avoided by just having a line saying if a scout leaves the troop all money reverts to the troop. Of course this is hindsight at this point.

 

But it did not, so does the scout get his money or not?

 

IS IT SO WRONG TO SHOW THE SCOUT THE LEAGAL WAY TO RESLOVE THIS? I DO NOT THINK SO!

 

[ScoutParent]

When reading the responses to my posts some questions come to mind:

 

1) Why would a SM, COR, CO or committee want to keep a scout from using money he earned for his continued scouting needs? How does this benefit scouting, the scout or anyone except the troop? What lessons are we teaching our boys if we accept this arbitrary administration of funds they have earned?

 

2) How would making a small claims court claim reflect poorly on scouting, destroy the troop or hurt boys in scouting? Wouldn't it teach the boys that there is a legal system intact to handle disputes in a fair and logical manner when adults fail to on their own? It almost seems as though it would teach them an important lesson in citizenship in my opinion.

[Mike Long]

I'd like to clarify.

 

I only have a problem with the suggestion to picket, write letters to the editor, invole people that have no reason to be involed (mayor, governor ect.), and generally work to remove support from the troop as was suggested earlier in this thread. That in my book is harassment and is unnecessary.

 

The problem is they didn't tell ScoutParent up front about a policy that they can't even produce any evidence that existed prior to this situation.

 

I don't have a problem with persueing a legal course of action as a last resort.