Question for Bob White

[eisely]

The reason I asked how much money was involved is that you may not want to make a stink over a relatively small amount. $500 is worth arguing about. $10 is not worth arguing about. Principles are important and worth fighting for, but some principles are more important than others. Another principle is determining if an argument is worth the cost in emotion and energy expended. One should choose one's arguments wisely. This is after all only about money. This is not a safety issue, or even a controversy over advancement.

 

Good luck. I was going to suggest that you could buy us all a round when you prevail, but that would have to be limited to soda pop, juice, lemonade, or water.

[ScoutParent]

The district finance committee met and decided that the troop had the authority to not transfer the money in the scout account to the new troop. They told me my next course of action would be to address a letter to the council committee and/or discuss it with the pastor of the church that sponsors the troop. I called the parish priest and he said he is not involved in the scout troop whatsoever and that whatever decisions they make he supports 100%.

[cjmiam]

Well, then I'd tell the Scoutmaster that you want a check made payable to your local council to be used for summer camp and camping merchandise at the Scout Shop. Usually those are items that troops recognize as allowable purchases with fundraising money by Scouts. Whatever is leftover can remain in your new troop account at the office and credited to your son's new account. Don't give up $500 IS alot of money.

[Bob White]

The District Finance committee? How did they get involved? Their job is to raise funds for the council through FOS and special fundraising events. Quite honestly your mailman would have been as much help (maybe more). When you said the district was involved I presumed you meant your District or Unit Commissioner was going to talk to the committee. Did you try any of the things we recommended? Asking for a written unit policy? Talking one-on-one with the Committee Chair, or to the Charter Organization Representative? What did they say?

 

Keep in mind as I mentioned in my first post the Chater Org. has all the control of finances, if the committee and the Charter rep say no, then it's no. You can keep fighting as cjmiam suggests but all you will do is waste a lot of time and raise your blood pressure. This is one of those times when you catch more flies with honey. Now that you've escalated things to the district and the Pastor, you have probably poisoned the situation beyond repair.

 

Bob

[ScoutParent]

Bob,

 

Yes, we followed your suggestion and were told that a copy of the bylaws would be mailed to us immediately (they didn't have one and would have to obtain it). That was two weeks ago. We stopped at the scout store with our son (to make some purchases of items he needed) and while we there we asked to speak to the unit commissioner. A gentleman came out, listened to the problem and told us to address letter to the district committee(i think finance) which we did. They called back and said what i typed. We did try the charter organization representative who said that we wouldn't be able to transfer the funds or use them at the scout store either. When we asked the SM and COR what the account was for they responded that it was for scouting needs as long as he was a member of their troop.

 

The idea that you can catch more flies with honey is not a new notion to us and we have always maintained a friendly, professional, respectful relationship with the people in this troop. Until we approached the scoutmaster with the transfer papers, we had no idea there would be a problem transferring the account--it has always been stated that one fundraiser was "the troop fundraiser" and all the rest were for the scout's individual accounts to be used for their scouting needs--never a stipulation as long as they are in this troop. For a troop to have rules, regulations, bylaws whatever, they certainly need to make parents and scouts aware of their existence and should provide each scout with a copy--to this date we have never seen such a copy. We've also learned that several other scouts did transfer their accounts to a different troop several years ago. We're young enough not to have to worry about blood pressure too much yet and have persistent natures so we will continue trying to affect a transfer of his account. We can't help but feel somewhat saddened by their attitudes because our son has always respected these people but we're not so idealistic as to expect them to be perfect and we understand that they are reacting partially out of feelings of rejection from our son choosing to transfer. It was not a choice based on personalities, or personal likes or dislikes of people but rather a choice based on programming, advancement methods, etc. It's sad that they are using this money as a way of making him pay for choosing to tranfer but that's the only way it can be perceived at this point.

[Bob White]

ScoutParent, I agree that the this is an unfortunate situation for your family. I believe the troop could have handled this much better. You need to go the the troop committee meeeting and present your situation. The meeting is open to all parents. They should have given you a set of rules if they had any when you joined and certainly once you had money in an account.

Good Luck,

 

Bob White

 

P.S.

It is unlikely to find a commissioner at the scout office unless you both just happen to visit at the same time. All commissioners are volunteers and do not keep hours at the scout office. You should however be able to get a phone number for your District Commissioner from the office.

[cjmiam]

Since these people have not produced a set of bylaws and you received no documentation stating such policies, my guess is that the rules have only been spoken. If that's the case, your situation should be addressed in part with past precedent. Further, I have a very difficult time believing that a number of responsible adults would not recognize your issues as legitimate. I agree with Bob, but will take it a step further. If you do not reach a resolution with the troop committee that is favorable to you, contact your attorney or else file a claim in small claims court. This is not a joke, $500 is a lot of money and your son has been defrauded.

 

cjmiam

 

[ScoutPro]

Your son worked for those funds for scouting under the understanding he could use these funds for such. If the governing bodies, your committee, leaders, church, and council refuse to acknowledge this then youve been mislead therefore you have the potential to imply theft by deception on your sons behalf. Therefore, I would file criminal charges first thing naming each leader in your troop. Since you will be filing criminal charges it will have to be addressed by the police. Do not talk to your local police if you have State Police. File with your State Police under the guidelines of exploited and abused children. They should at least call your leaders and verify their side of the story. This may resolve your issue as they maybe scared into doing whats right. The bad news would be the police will comeback stating you must pursue a civil case as no law has been broken. But, I do believe that because a minor is involved they will have to at least pursue it by interviewing the leaders to make that determination. This will get their attention and if they have defrauded your son then they should go to jail.

 

In my opinion you may or may not get the State Police to investigate. It depends on who you talk with, and if they have sympathy for your cause. Hopefully hell make a call to ask them their side of the story. Hopefully hell call someone that makes him angry therefore he files the charges and says let the jerk explain it to the judge. But, professionally this is a judgment call and they may tell you right upfront to purse civil action. But, theft by deception is what they have done and this should be considered criminal.

 

Criminal charges fail then:

 

1. Call the Scout Executive for your council and ask to meet with him and explain the issue as your son is being defrauded and taken advantage of. Play hardball with him because he will sit behind the its the charting organizations charter and council does not get involved in internal matters.

a. I would make it clear that youre going to take this to National BSA level if its not resolved. This wont scare him much because its a good ole boys club. But it will show him youre serious and you can make it very miserable for him if he doesnt at least try to help.

b. Secondly, tell him youre going to the press and publicly make a case of it in the papers and on TV and youll sensationalize youth defrauded and leaders refuse to help.

c. Thirdly, dont make these as threats. You must follow-up on these and do it if hes not at least willing to help resolve these issues.

d. Get written testimonies from others that witnessed the other kids that have transferred funds and use this in your presentation. Be prepared with a draft of the press release with supporting documentation.

 

What you want him to do is to contact the Troop Committee (SM) and reminded them about the meaning of being trustworthy and that organizations that are not representative of scouting will NOT be re-charted within council. In other words get him to play hardball with your troop committee and youll get your sons money.

 

2. If you cannot get council to intervene, go to your church parish meeting that runs the church and speak with the members that run the church. Also, if there is a hierarchy in the church take it to that level. Explain to the higher levels that youre taking it public. If its a Catholic Church you shouldnt have any trouble getting the local press to spin a scandal story about a youth being taken advantage of.

 

a. Prepare a draft of the press release explaining the story, past history that theyve done transfers before and now theyre not. Make the press release factual and very embarrassing for them to explain.

b. If you do not get it resolved fax the article to several local papers with contact information with names and phone numbers so they can contact the individuals. Reporters love these types of stories. Make sure you follow-up with a call to the paper after the fax. Get them to understand the human rights angle and how your story needs to be told.

 

3. If you dont get it resolved now you get more serious. You make everyone on the troop committee, church, and council miserable. You ask the Governor to get involved and you start writing to National BSA and you call them and you write your congressman, senator etc. asking them to question the troop. At the same time you go after their funding. Start contacting everyone that donates to your council, church, and troop and ask them to consider not continuing their support. Companies and others will not want to get involved if there is this type of publicity.

 

 

a. Within your community your troop has to be working with the chamber, fire department, police department, businesses etc. Go after shutting down the support from these organizations. Bottom line, church members, fire departments, chambers etc. do not like to get involved in these types of controversys so hopefully theyll pull their support or threaten too which will make your committee rethink their position.

b. Call your local radio station on talk radio and open the topic up on the radio. Ask to be a special quest and cover it during a special interview.

c. Stage a picket/protest march in front of the church this will get you publicity and make it difficult for the church. Call the TV station prior and get television coverage.

i. Start you protest and have someone call the local TV station reporting that a group of people are protesting in front of the church. Its something to do with a child being abused. That will get you a camera crew especially if its a Catholic Church.

 

Also stage pickets in front of any business or organization that supports the troop.

 

 

4. Go to court, but do this LAST. Do not start this to soon as theyll hide behind saying were waiting for the judge to decide. But make it miserable for the members of your church and committee and do it now. Get aggressive fast and turn the heat up quickly and make each day worse for these individuals.

 

 

Ive been through this several times over my years in scouting and in business everyday. You just have to make yourself the squeaky wheel and hit your council, church, and troop with playing hardball.

 

 

[Bob White]

Scout Parent, please temper some of the things you read with your own good judgement. Not all the advice you are reading is in the best interest of your son or scouting.

 

The coucil, dispite what others might write is not a governing body unless a policy of the BSA is violated. It would be similar to the federal government only having juristiction over federal laws, and not local laws.

 

Each Chartered Organization owns their scout unit, and as such have control over the administration of the unit operations as long as they stay within BSA Policy. How funds are raised is controlled by the BSA, however how the profits are distributed is in the hands of the the chartered organization and the committee that they approved. I still believe that a mature meeting with the committee will get the results that are fair to your son and the scout unit.

 

Best of Luck

Bob White

[ScouterPaul]

Here is a thought. Have you checked the Troop's finances. Maybe the troop has spent the money and they don't have it to give to the young Scout.

[ScoutParent]

We intend to give the parish priest one more chance to get his organization to do the right thing then we intend to call the diocese. I do think it would be great to get a national policy on this because of situations like this. While we should all be able to depend on the integrity of leadership we all know this is not a perfect world and it would alleviate all the questions if it were mandatory to transfer individual funds to any chartered scouting organization. We also have wondered if perhaps the funds are no longer available. How would we be able to know though, we can't even get a straight answer about the account balance. I see what you are saying about the Charter Organization owning the assets of the troop, Bob, but if that applies to the individual accounts as well, it should be made public from the minute a boy joins the troop. Parents and scout could sign and date a receipt and acknowledgment of rules and there would be no problem. If a change occurs parents and scouts would receive another paper explaining changes to sign and date.

 

I too would think a mature meeting with the committee would yield the appropriate results. The problem is they are not willing to participate in such. Just yesterday we received a letter addressed to our son that stated they would not be releasing his money and that it was unfortunate that his family misunderstood policies but it was his choice to leave. Does this sound like a mature way to handle the situation? While I think they are basically good people they are working under the assumption that they are infallible and that is dangerous for anyone to believe. Had we been informed from the start of their policies this would not have been such a startling revelation and we would not have attempted to transfer his funds. They need to acknowledge that and do the right thing.

 

We will certainly take any ideas under advisement. Any actions we take would be only to remedy this situation and not to harm the troop. Although human nature makes this seem a favorable option at times, we realize it really just hurts the boys and scouting and we don't want to do that. We will not stand by though and let this SM, COR or committee take advantage of our son or punish him for choosing to leave this particular scouting organization. The decision was a hard one for him to make as he takes each part of scouting seriously and was questioning whether this would conflict with loyalty. Because he tried his best to work with the leadership and make a stronger troop to no avail, we assured him that he had done his best and that was what was expected of him. Now to face this with these leaders has really opened his eyes a little more than i would have preferred at this point. Keep the ideas coming---the old adage two heads are better than one is usually true. Thanks

[Bob White]

ScoutParent

 

A national policy already exists. It says that money earned by the troop belongs to the troop. Not every troop uses scout accounts. Not every troop gives the same percentage to the scout. Your problem was not created, nor will be solved through national policy. That money was never your son's. It was set aside from the troop funds based on whatevery criteria the committee determined for each fundraiser. As such they set the rules.

 

I grant you, they should have communicated those rules. If they didn't share those rules then they should do whats best for the scout. The parents who were not on the committee should have asked what the rules were. The good of the scout should be the guiding factor, but most importantly adults should set a better example for boys by playing nice together. It is unfortunate that this troop is not playing nice together.

 

Bob White

[FScouter]

It is appalling that anyone involved in scouting would advocate filing a lawsuit or criminal charge over a matter such as this. Funds raised through troop money earning projects belong to the troop. The troop may or may not allocate some of those troop earnings to be used for the benefit of the specific boy. The absence of written bylaws does not automatically mean that the money is owned by the boy. A boy account is not a personal savings account. If the troop chooses to transfer the amount to another troop, that is fine and well. But they are certainly not obligated to do so, regardless of what may or may not have been done with other boys in years past. The right thing to do may be for the troop to make the transfer, but if the decision is no, then let it go. Sounds like the parent wants to take a parting shot on the way out.

[ScoutPro]

Continued . . .

 

It is a shame that youre mentioning what happens to often in scouting. The committee, SM, or COR run the organization as something other than the way BSA suggests. Bob White is 100% correct. Unless the troop is volatizing National BSA policy youre left at the mercy of your charting organization and by the way National BSA policy doesnt cover anything in regards to how the unit should be run or manage funds.

 

This should be a lesson for anyone thats in scouting. Get to the troop committee meetings, ask for by-laws, and if that unit doesnt have any or the committee doesnt respond then join another unit or start your own. Way too often parents never get involved until theres a problem, everyone is happy letting the SM run everything as they drop off the kids and before you know it you have a troop run by one or two.

 

As I outlined earlier you can become such a pain in everyones eyes that they decide its just easier to transfer his funds. But, from your postings I would venture to say you have a puppet committee and whether or not we disagree with it or not, the charting organization owns it. That is who you have to convince or make so miserable they at least listen. But, in my opinion your charting organization and its elected officials have defrauded by theft of deception and therefore they have committed a criminal act. Of course that is my opinion based on my States Laws and the practices as outlined by the Better Business Bureau of my state. In fact the charting organization and the troop are a business that must follow similar rules of conduct. If your son was told he could sell popcorn and that 30% of that money was for him to use for scouting regardless of what unit he was in and now he cannot, this is fraudulent, misleading, and is illegal. Thats a fact of law.

 

But now for reality, prove it. Youll find that nothing is in writing or if it is you cannot prove when it was written. They have set your expectation with prior behavior but proving it will be another matter. The criminal charges will get their attention with civil charges depending on how the police view it. But, let me explain reality here too, this may take several years if at all to get resolved. If your sponsor, committee, and council have already turned you down then the reality is you have to make them miserable this is how it works. Theyll pay you to shut you up and based on your prior post let me assume your not leaving on good terms. The fact that others have left and their money was transferred only indicates they liked those scouts as they left under better circumstances. If youve had a falling out (or your son) with the SM and he controls the COR and committee or they too are mad then thats why youre not being treated the same and is why they refuse to transfer the funds. Regardless, do what Bob suggests and address the committee hopefully level heads will prevail. If not, follow my plane and youll get your sons money.

 

Best of luck,

 

[ScoutParent]

In essence Bob, we are in agreement--1. they did not communicate the rules

2. what's best for the scout is to have access to the money in his account for summer camp, uniforms, etc.

 

 

As far as a national policy, I would like things spelled out more on the administration of funds just as they are on the fund raising itself. I don't think that policies are a bad thing--it seems they keep things running smoothly and fairly. It wouldn't hamper the troop from being it's own organization; just give a little more guidance to the acceptable ways of doing things so in that respect I do think it would have helped us.

 

 

The money was always construed as being the scouts for scouting use. So the perception that it is his money was created by the very people that are trying to keep it from him at this point. His transfer has not actually been processed yet and they have gone as far as to say that they would not reimburse him for items purchased at the scout store. Even by the rules that they finally sent yesterday he would be able to purchase uniforms, and parts there of so it is really a ridiculous situation.

 

We called the parish priest and he sounded more receptive to looking into it for us today. Will check back with him after memorial day and see what if any progress he has made.