Cub Scout Only Buildings

[Bob White]

Ed,

I understand we are not talking the entire camp just specific facilities.

 

As I say it's a common program philosophy.

 

If you can use it during camporees it sounds like the council isn't being as inflexible as it sounded in your previous posts.

 

Another thing to consider is Cub camping is different from troop camping, it requires larger buidings to accomodate larger numbers of scouts and all the adults. Most troops are usually much smaller. In my District we have 39 Troops and I would guess only 4 of us would be able to fill that big cabin. It makes sense to reserve it for packs. 0f our 49 packs I can only think of two that would not fill that cabin to capacity (and beyond).

 

Bob

[eagle90]

2 Points -

 

The saddest part is that at some times this wonderful sounding building is being used by NO ONE. No one is benefitting from it. If they want Cubs to use it, let them have priority in signing up and if no Cubs sign up, open it up to Boy Scouts. Why let this progrm tool sit idle.

 

Second, the old "National Policy" rears its ugly head again. Any time there is a controversial decision made by a professional or executive board that is unpopular at the grass roots level, we hear that it is a national policy. That policy book must rival War and Peace by now.

[Quixote]

i think i'd ask to see the "national" policy in writing.

[shemgren]

The accreditation of Cub Scout and Boy Scout Camps is done the National Camp School, which has the authority to ensure that the camp's facilities and program are in compliance with National's guidelines. The National Camp School inspects the camp througout the year to ensure all guidelines are met. This body sets the guidelines.

 

If the local council which owns the camp, set further restrictions on certian buildings, this may be due to donation to the council or the camp with that the building use was set as a situpation to the gift, or in keeping with the council may have a specific program goal that is met by exclusive use of one building for that purpose. In my local camp, the OA has a building that is used for nothing else.

 

In addition, the camp must meet all local and state rules and regs.

 

 

[twin_wasp]

Folks:

Here are my three cents:

 

1- There recently is a conscious effort to separate cubs from Scouts at camporees and other events, I think this has come about as a correction to the excessive integration of the cubs into scouting events in the past. Some of our camporees a few years ago had cubs partipating in the scouting events, I had to modify my knife shrpening demo when I realized I had 9 year olds participating! (Yes, one of the little fellows cut himself.)

 

2 - National does not own camps, but it does inspect and rate summer camps and has sort of certification process. Getting a good inspection is a goal for every council camp, and following the latest recommendations is a good way to succeed.

 

3 - Managing volunteers is a neglected and difficult art, and the camp director who chose to ignore the work you guys did on that building does so at his own peril. It is his call to use it for cub programs, but there are ways to recognize and redirect the energies of the guys who built and maintained it.

 

Yours in scouting

twin_wasp

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

You are looking at this with blinders on. The ONLY time the Boy Scouts are allowed to use this building is during camporees. And not all camporees are held at this camp. The volunteers in my district have been told Boy Scouts can't use the building. Now from what I understand one of the reasons this has been designated a "Cub Only" building is it has indoor plumbing. None of the other buildings at this camp do. Now it is my understanding if Cubs want to camp in cabins they must have indoor plumbing. If this is true, why are they allowed to ues any building at any camp in my council? They all don't have indoor plumbing.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

 

[Bob White]

Actually Ed, if anything I'm looking at this from a much broader perspective. I'm looking beyond the emmotional effect it is having on you and a few other dedicated volunteers who worked hard to improve the cabin, expecting to get at least some of the benefit.

 

I'm looking beyond the effect it is having on just the troops who have use, in most cases, to more facilities than Cub Scouts.

 

I'm looking at a national program trend that has been very effective at maximizing council resouce development by creating separate and unique program facilities for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.

 

Ed, it's just one cabin for you. In some councils it is entire camps, and it's having very good results.

 

Times change

Bob

 

 

[ScouterPaul]

Ed

There is no requirement, to my knowledge, requiring indoor plumbing for Cub Scout Camping. I've not been through the new BALOO traing, I'm taking it on June 1, there may be some new requirement there.

 

I agree with you on this issue. We all have limited resources whether it is at the Unit, District, Council or National level. If the building is not being used by Cub Scouts on a particular date then it is a waste of resources to not let a Boy Scout Troop use it.

 

Now having said that I also think that is is a good idea to have buildings, camps ect. that are geared to Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts and that they should have first right to reserve the facility. The question would be how long in advance?

[sst3rd]

I hope I don't get too far off this thread, but here goes. Our Council has a fairly large camp. The facilities were adequate, but not much more so. Our Troop has done lots of service out at this camp (outside of the three OA work weekend Ordeals). The one building that had heat and electricity, was the administration building. Every January (after the holidays), our Troop had a Merit Badge Weekend. There are bunk beds in several rooms perfect for the Scouts and Scouters (separately of course). Our concentration was on the merit badge programs, and we didn't have to worry about cooking, tents, tarps, etc.. As a Scout Leader, I saw nothing wrong with this special event, and it became traditional. The Scouts looked forward to it every year. You guessed it. Someone at the Council took offense for some reason, and immediately made the admin building off limits to Scout Troops. I was told that Troops don't camp that way. Yet, OA Staff adults still use it, training Staffs still use it, "special" Explorer Posts and Venture Crews use it, and other "special" folks. You bet I said something. I feel if I work my butt off at that camp, the Troops have as much right to reserve and use Council Camp facilities, as anyone else. We're all part of Scouting. We always left the building in better shape than we found it, but that didn't matter. Now that our Council has put lots of money into the Council Camp, they've created a separate Cub Camp, so that the original camp can be Boy Scout only. I'm aware that exceptions will be allowed (yeah, for the right people). I've had a great relationship with the Ranger for years, and he informs me that things will become even more restrictive. I've helped the camp build a new COPE course, rifle range, skeet range, and lots more, but I've been told that these facilities will only be used during the eight weeks of summer camp. There's a long history of our Troop not attending our home camp, so there is definitely some tension in my relationship with the Council. I will continue to push opening up these facilities for all Scout groups, of course, with the proper certifications. But, after I pushed what the certifications were, I was told that the Council hadn't made up their mind yet, what the qualifications will be, and again told that the facilities would be open during summer camp, and that I ought to bring our Troop (the Scouts decide from several camps in the mid-Atlantic area). I keep hearing of all of the "support" that the Council is supposed to be providing its Scouting groups, but they've locked up the most important one, the Council's camp and associated resources.

 

anderson

[ScoutNut]

Ed - I can understand your concern that the building is going unused when there is a Boy Scout Troop that would like to rent it. I have 2 questions - 1)How big is your Troop? Would you be filling it to capacity? 2)Are the Cub Scout Packs allowed use of the other buildings now that they have their own?

 

Our councils camps are not very Cub friendly and as a result are not used by the Cubs that much. You must remember that most troops have their own tents and camping gear. Most Cub packs do not. Most troops have leaders and scouts who are experienced campers. Most Cub packs do not. As a matter of fact, even if the leaders are experienced, I would doubt that many Cubs have ever camped at all (that is one of the reasons they join. LOL). The adults camping with the troops are either experienced leaders or parents who want to be there. The adults camping with the pack are either leaders or parents who HAVE to be there. Cub parents who either hate camping or have zippo experience have no choice. If their son wants to go camping, most councils require a parent to go with him. An extra large facility with lots of comforts would be just the ticket for inexperienced Cub families.

 

Perhaps another reason this building is reserved is the size issue. As Bob said most packs would fill it up and be able to fully utilize it's facilities. Most troops would not come close to capacity. At our Girl Scout Council camp you are only able to reserve the cabins if you meet the size requirements. No way would a troop of 20 be allowed to use a cabin ment for 58! It would cost to much for heat, water, and electric. That would explain why it could be used for Boy Scout camporee's. The entire facility could then be used to capacity.

 

One more thing to remember while you are bemoaning the lack of Boy Scout facilities at your council camps. Boy Scout troops are NOT restricted to camping in ONLY council camps. I am sure there are many year-round facilities available to you at your state, county and private parks. Many councils strongly request that Cubs use ONLY council managed or approved facilities.

 

 

[evmori]

ScoutNut,

My Troop has 15 active Scouts & about 7 active adults. We would in no way fill this building. But that isn't really the point. There are Troops in my council that are large enough to fill the building. If the building is sitting empty and my Troop wants to use it, why can't we?

 

Bob,

In my council Cubs have the same access to the same facilities that Troops do. At one council camping meeting we were told since Cub adult leadership is more transient than Boy Scout adult leadership they are not as organized & loose out when it comes to reserving council facilities. While this maybe true, I feel it is a line just liek it's "National Policy"

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1