Undue Influence?

[sst3rd]

All very interesting comments, but as in all other threads of the same nature, it's all repeats. No opinions have been changed. Again mentioned, is unit option. Unit option already exists, and has been utilized for many years. As a long time Scoutmaster, I, the CC, nor the COR, have of yet to receive in writing, any policy (new, amended, or otherwise) concerning gay leadership being rejected. I continue to review the adult application, and I still don't see any mention of rejecting gay leadership (or to be on the look out for it). A "policy" has never been discussed at the many levels of training that I've been involved in, nor have I heard it mentioned at Roundtables, District, or Council meetings. The few times I've ever heard it discussed among Scout leaders, was the fact that it is a "none" issue in the Troops. There it should stay.

[Bob White]

sst3rd,

 

I agree with most of what you say. i don't think these posts will change peoples minds but they might inform people who have not made a determination or wanted more information.

 

However when you say "Unit option" already exists" it does on some membership topics but not on the avowed gay or athiest issue. That haas been ruled on by National and it is not a open to "Unit Option". In fact there are organizations that may not charter Scout Units any longer because the refused national exclusion of avowed gays.

 

Other than that you are right.

 

Bob

[evmori]

"They are "choosing" to disobey God, live in fear, get beat up, be discriminated against in jobs and housing, have their families hate them."

 

Yes they are. We were given the freedom of choice by God.

 

"Andrea Yates was told that a "good" wife did what her husband said, didn't use birth control, and home schooled her children. She was told this by her church."

 

She methodically murdered her children. Why? Does it really matter?

 

Yes, I can be very opinioniated about things I have strong feelings about.

 

We have the right to question BSA policy we don't agree with or don't understand. I don't feel we would be good leaders if we just took BSA policy at face value.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

[Bob White]

Yes Ed,

 

You have a RIGHT to question BSA policy, and if you do it constructively to the the appropriate national committees, fine. Do it publicly as a scouter and the BSA has a RIGHT to remove you from membership.

 

There are a lot of ways to be a bad leader not following your convictions is just one. Years ago as a young adult, I was invited to join a nationally known community service organization. I was selected as our intiates group representative and went through a very moving ceremony on behalf of my entry class. during the reception that followed, I learned that the organization was segregated (this was in the late 70's). I quit the day I joined, and I let them know why. I also let others in the community know what I thought of their legal but antiquated rules. (They have since changed their rules)

 

My point is, I felt a responsibility to voice my disapproval of their ethics. But my own ethics (largely formed through scouting) told me it was hypocritical to tell others that "this organization was racist and Oh by-the-way look at me I'm a member". I would never belong to an organization who's values I could not accept.

 

Had I stayed and voiced my opinion, I would fully expect to have been thrown out. That was that organizations right.

 

You can't live in two worlds at once and be true to either, or yourself.

 

There are a lot of ways to be a bad leader. Not speaking up about something you feel is wrong is one way. Not keeping your word to follow the rules or the program after you promised to, is another. If you voice your opinion to the BSA, I support your right to do so. If you voice it in public and the BSA removes you, I fully support their right to do so.

 

You CAN disagree, and you CAN do something about it. But, do it in a way that the BSA says is inappropriate and you can be permanently removed. You are free to choose your method.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter]

BobWhite says:

 

But the bottom line is if you speak publicly as a member of the BSA against the values of the program, the BSA rights to free association allow for you can be removed.

 

I have seen nothing in the BSA literature that says that if you advocate against the policy, you will be removed. Let's assume that legally the BSA can remove you, I have not seen any policy that would do that. I have seen an indication that it is a violation of BSA policy to advocate against the policy to youth. That presumably was the basis for the adults in that PBS documentary about Scouting for All to be de-registered.

 

BobWhite, the main problem I have with your recent posts is that you are focusing on what the BSA may legally do as opposed to what is the right thing to do. The other problem I have is with your statements about advocating against the policy from within the program. I agree that you should not put on a uniform and go to a rally that is protesting against the BSA. I agree that you should not stand in front of a group of Scouts and criticize the BSA. But what about the BSA councils that have approved resolutions asking the BSA to modify its policy? Or what if someone at a troop committee meeting proposes such a resolution, with a request that the CR introduce it at the next Council business meeting? They are not violating the policy or asking that anyone else do so, and they are not advocating that anyone cut funding or quit. They are working within the system to change the policy. That is ok, right?

And what about posting on an Internet message board to advocate against the policy, that's ok too, isn't it?

[sctmom]

Interestingly enough, I have a very hard time finding an address for BSA National. I can't seem to find it on the official BSA website. Looked in the Boy Scout handbook and don't see it there.

Not just about this issue, but in general, it seems that BSA should gladly say "send us your comments, here is where we are."

 

Most parents do not even know who to go to other than the Scoutmaster. They don't know about the Committee, Charter Rep, District, or Council.

 

[Bob White]

"BobWhite, the main problem I have with your recent posts is that you are focusing on what the BSA may legally do as opposed to what is the right thing to do."

 

The right thing to do is your job in scouting. If your job is to set policy or determine the program then you should do that.

 

If your job is to do follow the program and deliver the BSA program to the youth in the unit you serve, then you should do that.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Bob White]

BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

NATIONAL OFFICE

P.O. BOX 152079

IRVING, TX 75015-2079

 

[NJCubScouter]

sst3rd says:

 

As a long time Scoutmaster, I, the CC, nor the COR, have of yet to receive in writing, any policy (new, amended, or otherwise) concerning gay leadership being rejected. I continue to review the adult application, and I still don't see any mention of rejecting gay leadership (or to be on the look out for it). A "policy" has never been discussed at the many levels of training that I've been involved in, nor have I heard it mentioned at Roundtables, District, or Council meetings.

 

Yes, this is a major peculiarity of this situation. I cannot think of another position taken by the BSA as to what you can or cannot do, or who should or should not do what, that is not expressed somewhere in some official literature that is either distributed to leaders or that leaders or units are expected to purchase. The Cub Scout Leader Book has many references to BSA policies, in fact I believe there is an entire chapter on BSA policies. I assume the Scoutmasters Handbook is similar. Generally when the BSA wants you to do something or not do something, they tell you what it is, in writing, often in excruciating detail. (The Guide to Safe Scouting is probably the best example.)

 

But not so for the gay-exclusion "policy." Yes, it has been mentioned in press releases, on the BSA's web site, and in Scouting magazine, but never in terms of what units should and should not do.

 

I cannot agree, however, that this amounts to "unit option" on the issue. It is clear what BSA-national's position is, and in their recent statement they specifically say that unit option is not permitted.

[NJCubScouter]

BobWhite, as the sentence of mine that you quoted makes clear, I was not talking about what is the right thing for me to do. I know what my job in Scouting is. I was talking about what is the right thing for BSA-national to do, and that is to change the policy, even though (as you have repeatedly mentioned) it has the legal right to keep the policy as it is. Regardless of how violative of the true values of Scouting and of the Declaration of Relgious Principles it may be.

[CubsRgr8]

NJCubScouter,

 

You say that the issue of undue influence doesn't matter. I agree, because there isn't any. But it was tjhammer (an articulate and ardent advocate of changing the policy) who brought it up, implying in another thread that the BSA policy was implemented because of undue influence by the LDS and RC church bodies.

 

I asked for membership information to assess that charge and I maintain the information supplied doesn't support the charge. In fact, I'll throw out the hypothesis that the 2001 membership information (if and when we are allowed to view it in similar detail) will show increases in units and membership to chartering organizations that support the policy and decreases in those that oppose it.

 

 

 

[evmori]

"You have a RIGHT to question BSA policy, and if you do it constructively to the the appropriate national committees, fine. Do it publicly as a scouter and the BSA has a RIGHT to remove you from membership."

 

Bob,

If I choose to exercise my 1st Ammendment right of free speech about a BSA policy I don't agree with in public, the BSA can't - I repeat - can't remove me from it's membership. They can't erexcise their 1st Ammendment to exclude certain lifestyles then puunish me for exercising my 1st Ammendment rights.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[sctmom]

A related article:

 

www.mormonstoday.com/000709/N1Scouting01.shtml

[Bob White]

Ed

you said "the BSA can't - I repeat - can't remove me from it's membership".

 

Actually, Yes they can, and they have in recent past.

 

The BSA's constitutional right to free association is no less valid, and on less protected, than your right to free speech. Just because you can say anything you want about the BSA does not mean you get to say it as a member of the BSA.

[OldGreyEagle]

I try to stay out of these discussions as I dont have the mental capacity to follow all the arguments and cross arguments, but something Bob White said hit a cord.

 

First of all, I disagree with BSA'a policy on gay leaders, but saying that let me paint an analogy:

 

Given a recent posting I made on sports, I hate to use a sports example, but I never claimed to be consistent:

 

If I was the starting Quarterback for the greatest NFL franchise of all time (Da Bears) I would be in heaven first, but second of all, I think I would know better than to show up at practice wearing a Bret Favre jersey or have the Green Bay logo tattoed on my cheek or cheer a Green Bay touchdown when the Packers play the Bears.

 

If I did these things, and I was cut, I might claim my first amendment rights were violated, but NFL football clubs are private organizaitons and I can see if you are part of one team, it's not a good idea to openly root for another team (especially when you play them)

 

The BSA is a private organization and gets to make up its membership rules. And if you publicly disagree, I can see see them removing you.

 

Bob, am I on the right track?