Undue Influence?

[LongHaul]

What they want is for scouting to validate their lifestyle

 

Once again Bob White has hit in the gold.

[sctmom]

What "they" want is to be treated as equal. Dale was a BSA member, had been for some time. BSA said "because of OUR political views we are getting rid of you". He sued to be part of something he already was a part of!

 

Many people see no reason for this policy to continue. I am against the policy. That does not mean I'm trying to make "political inroads". It means that I want BSA to stop discriminating against a group of people who can provide, and have provided in the past, service to the youth of BSA.

 

If I use your logic, if a company refuses me employment because I'm female (short, tall, overweight, smoker, etc.), then I should walk away and so "oh well, they don't like me".

 

Everyone keeps saying that homosexuals are not good role models. I stand by that is not a good enough reason, there are many groups that are not good role models but BSA does not discriminate against them across the board. Should we ban all smokers? I don't smokers are good role models, and can find lots of people who agree with me. I want more than just "they don't smoke in front of the kids". This is asking no more than the ban on homosexuals ask.

 

[evmori]

sctmom,

You said "It means that I want BSA to stop discriminating against a group of people who can provide, and have provided in the past, service to the youth of BSA."

 

The BSA is not discriminating. They are exercising their right of freedom of association.

 

Comparing women being discriminated against in the workplace and homosexuals not being allowed to be in the BSA is like comparing oil & water. How would you feel if your son went on a camping trip and you found out one or more of the leaders were homosexuals? Do you feel these people are good role models for your son? Do you want him to look up to them?

 

Smokers have a bad habit. Does this make them a bad role model? Not entirely. Homosexuals have an abnormal lifestyle. Does that make them bad role models? Yes.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

[sctmom]

"How would you feel if your son went on a camping trip and you found out one or more of the leaders were homosexuals? Do you feel these people are good role models for your son? Do you want him to look up to them? "

 

If the person is working with the youth, acting as a responsible adult, meeting all the other criteria of "good role model", I would have NO problem with it. If my child is inspired by someone who happens to be homosexual, so be it.

 

I have worked with female homosexuals, they have never tried to "hit" on me. I realize as an adult that some people I knew growing up were homosexual (youth and adults), they never tried to "corrupt" me. They never mentioned it. It wasn't a topic of conversation. I was aware that a male relative was "different" than the other men in the family, now I know why. But he is also one of the most caring, loving, likeable people in that part of the family -- I'd trust him with my son. I also think he is a good role model -- he has worked hard throughout his life, he cares for others -- visiting home bound elderly on a regular basis, he is there for the family in time of grief, he is friendly, etc.

 

Does have an "abnormal" lifestyle make a bad role model? Not necessarily. For a long time it was "abnormal" for a woman to want to be single, work outside of the home or get a college education -- backed up by religion saying this was bad (and some Christians still say this is bad). Does that make all women who want to work bad role models?

 

 

 

[evmori]

Now you are comparing apples & oranges again. Women wanting to work and being homosexual are completely different. Women wanting to work has never been considered abnormal. And if being homosexual is normal, why aren't we all that way?

 

IMHO, a homesexual cannot be a good role model.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

They are different sctmom, we are all different. the world is made of different people who form into organized societies. In those societies there are other groups that form. Not every group agrees or is required to agree with the other groups. Just because you want to belong to group does not give you the right to join. Our constitution says so. You can choose who you associate with or choose who not to associate with. There is NO right to "forced" association in a private organization.

 

Employment is a total separate deal. There is no Constitution protection for businesses who discriminate in certain areas. Remember there is legal discrimination and illegal discrimination.

 

A business cannot say you are short and so you can't work here, if your height has nothing to do with the job requirements. But if you want to be on a professional basketball team and your

3-ft tall, They can make the choice (discriminate) that your height does not meet with what they value in a player and refuse to hire you. Even if you disagree with them, they still don't have to hire you.

 

Can they refuse you for your religion, or your skin color, or you lifestyle (see Dennis Rodman) no, thats illegal.

 

The Boy Scouts of America is a private service organization and just because someone doesn't recognize our right to free association doesn't diminish that right.

 

There is no law or constitutional right that says you get to join a private organization because you want to. You may want there to be, or wish there was, but the fact is there isn't.

 

You would think that a grop or individuals, who wanted to belong to an organization that for almost a century has based much of it's program on citizenship and government, would appreciate the content of the Bill Of Rights.

 

I would never claim membership to an organization that had rules or values that I could not accept.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

YES, women working or wanting to remain single was considered ABNORMAL as recent as 50 years ago! At the turn of the century, it was THE mainstream belief about women. Something was "wrong" with Susan B. Anthony for wanting to remain single, for wanting to vote, etc. Most recently, Andrea Yates was told that a "good" wife did what her husband said, didn't use birth control, and home schooled her children. She was told this by her church. Does it make her not guilty - no, but it contributed to her problems.

 

Bob, do you REALLY want everyone who disagrees with the policy to leave? As many of us have said, we don't agree, we will not be silent yet we will think SO much of BSA as a whole, we will not leave.

 

Do we have to ALL be a certain way for it to be "normal"? We ALL have to be exactly alike? If it is "abnormal" and God disapproves so much, then why doesn't GOD stop people from being homosexual -- oh, wait, I remember -- it's their "choice". They are "choosing" to disobey God, live in fear, get beat up, be discriminated against in jobs and housing, have their families hate them.

 

Okay, stepping off my soapbox for the moment.

We seem to have, once again, strayed far from the original point of this thread.

[NJCubScouter]

Ed Mori says:

 

IMHO, a homesexual cannot be a good role model.

 

And that's exactly what it is, your humble opinion. There is no other basis for this policy than opinions, some of them not so humble.

 

So how about if you exercise your humble opinion in your unit, and let my CO exercise its humble opinion in my unit? (Btw I am not exactly sure what that opinion would be in the case of my CO, though I suspect that school district policy would probably dictate non-discrimination; in fact that is the policy now, though to my surprise nobody has ever raised it.)

 

How would that hurt anyone? It wouldn't change the program. It wouldn't change anything. In fact, it would probably help the program in my state by bringing back United Way funding and other support. (The United Way chapter in my county was one of the first in the nation to cut off funding.) Not that attracting funds is a reason to change a policy. The policy should be changed, in those units that choose to, because it is the right thing to do.

[Bob White]

Sctmom

You asked "Bob, do you REALLY want everyone who disagrees with the policy to leave? As many of us have said, we don't agree, we will not be silent yet we will think SO much of BSA as a whole, we will not leave."

 

No, I certainly don't want you to leave, unless you can't in good conscience keep your word to follow the the policies and program as you promised to do as a leader.

 

That includes keeping your opinion as a scouter to yourself on this topic. If you want to protest it you have that right as a private citizen, but not as a member of a private organization, unless you accept the authority of the organization to expel you if it chooses. I think you need to follow your conscience and protest from outside the Scouting program if indeed you feel the need to protest.

 

It is not your right to be a member and openly challenge this policy. the BSA has a right and I believe a responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the the values they have chosen to live by.

 

 

Bob

 

[LongHaul]

Bob,

This is that small area where we disagree completely. It is not your right to be a member and openly challenge this policy. I am an American. I am of Polish ancestry but NOT a Polish-American. I was born here and hope to someday die right here, but when the ruling body I helped elect does something I don't like I WILL BE HEARD. I am a Scout Leader by choice both mine and my CO'S and the local Councils and Nationals. No where have I ever seen anything that says I gave up my right to openly challenge policy. Be it verbally, written, or thru my actions SO LONG AS THOSE ACTIONS DO NOT GO AGAINST THE OATH OR THE LAW. If I'm out in front of my local NBC affiliate IN UNIFORM protesting this policy, yes can my butt. When in uniform you are a representative of BSA act like it. If on the other hand I have on my Bears Tee Shirt and I'm out there protesting this policy that's my right. As Leaders striving to teach boys to become responsible adults we would be doing them an injustice to tell them not to speak out when they see something that they believe is wrong.

[KoreaScouter]

BSA defines this as a moral issue; I do, too. If someone doesn't, the arguments don't matter.

 

What many Americans seem to be doing since, oh, about January 1993 or so, is compartmentalizing morality; that is to say, it's okay to be (fill in the moral failing/deviance of your choice) as long as you're doing a good job otherwise. We've done that with everyone from politicians to our next door neighbors. Now, some on this thread are saying it's okay to have gay Scoutmasters in the woods with our boys, if they're good at tying knots or pitching tents. Here's another example: If a high school has high SAT averages, a winning football team, and 90% of graduates go to college, does that make it okay for the principal to fondle the students or cheat on his wife? Of course not, but that's exactly what some seem to be saying when this logic is applied to Scouting.

 

Some of our most noble achievements as a nation were accomplished as a result of our moral principles and our adherence to them (in some cases gradual, but nonetheless). As I said up front, one would have to see this as other than a moral issue in order to argue that gay Scout leaders are okay. If that's the case, I think we're wasting bandwidth over this.

[sctmom]

Well said, Long Haul. Thank you.

 

I am NOT trying to destroy BSA. I do NOT agree with pulling funding for BSA. But I DO have the right AND the responsibility to stand up for what I believe in. Do I say these things at a troop meeting? No. It has no place there. This forum is an approriate place. I have the write to express my opinions and beliefs to other adults, just like I tell them what a great thing Scouting is, if the situation arises.

 

Quote from the BSA Handbook

"A Scout is brave. ...He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him."

"A Scout is reverent...."He respects the beliefs of others."

"It is your duty to respect and defend others' rights to their religious beliefs even when they differ from your own."

"A Scout is obedient....."He obyes the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them....Obedience must be guided by good judgment. If someone tells you to cheat, steal, or do something else you know is wrong, you must say no. Trust your own beliefs and obey your conscience when you know you are right."

 

By expressing my opinion I am NOT being disobedient. I am not going against any policy or law.

 

 

[Bob White]

Longhaul and scoutmom,

 

Please don't miss understand me, I support and will defend your constitutional right to free and open speech.

 

In return I ask you to support the BSA constitutional right to free assosiation.

 

Neither right is greater than the other. publicly speaking out against the BSA's membership rules is your right as an American citizen. Denying your membership to a private organization for publicly decrying one of their values is a legal right of the BSA's.

 

It's a double edged sword

You don't get to choose who gets their constitutional rights and who doesn't.

 

"If you knock down a house while your standing in it, don't be suprised if you get hit by the debris you create." 'a Bobism'

 

Sctmom, You say "By expressing my opinion I am NOT being disobedient. I am not going against any policy or law."

 

In fact, you are violating a BSA policy that says if you disagree with the values of scouting you can try to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them by sharing your opinion with the National Committee. But if you speak as a scout leader publicly against the values of the program the BSA has the legal and constitional right to remove your membership from the BSA.

 

Your opinion will be taken seriously by national, so will your public disapproval of the BSA if you do it as a BSA member. One will be accepted positively one negatively. The choice is left to you.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

[ScouterPaul]

A Scout is BRAVE

A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

 

Bob White with all due respect. You wrote:

In fact, you are violating a BSA policy that says if you disagree with the values of scouting you can try to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them by sharing your opinion with the National Committee. But if you speak as a scout leader publicly against the values of the program the BSA has the legal and constitional right to remove your membership from the BSA.

 

How can this policy not be in opposition of at least one of the 12 Scout Laws?

 

YIS

 

Paul

[Bob White]

Scouterpaul,

 

I'll turn it back and say how does speaking out while as a member not violate "Obedient"?

 

Look I'll be the first to admit this is a very layered situation. But the bottom line is if you speak publicly as a member of the BSA against the values of the program, the BSA rights to free association allow for you can be removed.

 

You have a right to free speech. The BSA has a right to free association.

 

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)