Undue Influence?

[NJCubScouter]

Ed Mori, succintly stating the real issue in this whole debate, says:

 

In God's eyes, homosexuality is a sin. Therefore being homosexual is a sin. Sin is separation form God. In my opinion, one cannot be reverent to God if you are separated from Him.

 

OK, but that's what YOU believe. It's the teaching of your religion, or the way you interpret it, and it's how you perceive God and what his eyes see. And if your belief is based on scripture, it is YOUR scripture and the way you and/or your religion interprets it and applies it to today's world. You are free to practice YOUR religion in YOUR home and YOUR place of worship.

 

But the BSA says it does not choose between religions or religious beliefs. It is "absolutely nonsectarian" regarding the religious practices and beliefs of its members and leaders -- that comes from the Declaration of Religious Principles that we all signed as part of our applications to become leaders. And under MY religious beliefs -- which are a combination of the religion in which I was raised and some of my own beliefs -- homosexuality is NOT a sin, is not condemned by God, does not separate a person from God, and does NOT prevent one from being reverent. What IS a "sin," or at least "wrong," is to exclude someone simply because they are a homosexual. As it happens, the religion in which I was raised, or more specifically my "movement" within that religion (Reform Judaism), shares that view. Reform Jewish leaders have joined with those of some Christian faiths in asking the BSA to change the policy.

 

So my question is, why is right for the BSA to practice YOUR religion to the exclusion of mine, when it says it (as an organization) does not give preference to ANY religion?

 

Maybe the BSA should start enforcing everybody's ideas of what sin is, not just that of your religion. But then we'd run into a few problems. Can't cook hamburgers on a campout, the Hindus say the cow is a sacred animal and it is a sin to slaughter one for food. Can't drive to camp or set up camp on Saturday, the Orthodox Jews say that Saturday is the sabbath and therefore all "work" (which some define as meaning almost every human activity other than praying in a temple or sitting quietly at home) is banned on that day and it is a sin. (The relatively small number of Orthodox Jewish Scouts and Scouters work around that problem so they can participate in Scouting.) Can't drink alcohol, even off-duty, the Muslims say that is a sin.

 

Or is it just YOUR religion that gets to say what a sin is, and what is or is not reverent? And if the answer is yes, why is that?

[evmori]

NJ,

What religion are you. I am a Christian.

 

 

[Bob White]

The exclusions from scouting membership, are there is more than just the one, are not based on any single religion or religions. They are based on the goals of the programs and how the BSA determines they can best be met to service youth.

 

>The method of leadership was established and approved by congressional charter.

 

>Congress has already overwhelmingly and bi-partisanlly voted not to alter the charter.

 

>The Supreme Court has determined that the membership practices are legal and constitutional.

 

>The families we serve have shown their agreement through growing membership

 

> The communitiies we serve show their support through rising number of charter organizations.

 

>Finances continue to grow dispite with diminishing support of United Way and the withdrawal of a few large corporate donors.

 

It comes to to this, decisions of the National Executive Board determine the rules of scouting. Unless we are a member of that board, made up of representatives from Charter Organizations across the country, our job is deliver the program not to determine it.

 

Anyone outside the program is welcome to disagree. But, if you don't like the rules, then don't play the game. I fully support your right to stand outside the scouting arena and work to change what you feel needs to change. But, don't be a guest in someone's home and complain that you don't like the way they run their house. That's not polite and it's not effective. Your not a prisoner, if you feel you'd be more comfortable in someone else's home, or in your own, then you owe it to yourself to go there.

 

I'll add one more thing before I relinquish my soapbox. This is just to prove that the people who are trying to change scoutings rules are taking the wrong road. Go to the BSA website and find the "events" link. It takes you to the world and national jamboree. It tells of the great things being done for, and done by, Boy Scouts. Now go the the home site for Scouting for All, an organization they say is made up almost half by Eagle Scouts who want to improve the scouting program. Follow the events link to their annual National Rallies. The goal of which is to pursuade charter organizations and corporate sponsors to quit their support of the BSA and for scouts and scouters to return their awards to natioal.

 

Oh, yes that shows great concern for the betterment of scouting and the service of youth, try to dry up their finances and have scouts booted from their charter homes. Does this sound like they want in or that they want the program dismantled? Without money, camps,and charter organizations, what program did they plan to "join".

 

Pardon me while I get of this soapbox.

 

I really don't want anyone to leave. I want us to stop spending so much time fighting within and just deliver the program. Scouting is for everyone but not everyone is for scouting.

[NJCubScouter]

Ed, not that my own religion particularly matters to the discussion, but as I thought I implied, I am Jewish. My actual beliefs are a mixture of the Reform and Reconstructionist movements within that faith, and portions of Deism (the actual religion of some of our founding fathers including Thomas Jefferson, see more at http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm), and maybe a few personal things thrown in.

 

So, I am not a Christian (though my wife and children are.) But within Christianity (which as I understand it, includes all Protestant denominations, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, LDS and others), there are some denominations, some organizations within denominations (such as Methodist and Episcopalian) and some individuals who do not believe homosexuality is a sin and who (as Chartered Organizations) have opposed the BSA's position as being inconsistent with their beliefs. On the other hand, Orthodox Jews (except for a few dissenters) do believe that homosexuality is a sin.

 

But again, what matters is not "who is what," but that the BSA has said it will not pick and choose among religions -- and seems to be doing exactly that.

 

I'd also be interested, Ed, to see you respond to the rest of the points in my post (including the one in the preceding paragraph), not just what religion I am.

[Quixote]

I see the black helicopters are out again

 

It seems to me that respect and tolerance for others' religions is a respected and valuable American trait. With that said, why is the LDS church singled out as being some sort of nefarious (sp) organization because they have certain religous beliefs (of which a number of religions have) that compel them to stand up for what they think is right and not cave in to current social winds?

 

JM - the LDS, like other organizations that partner with the BSA have every right and i would argue a responsibility to influence the BSA in what they feel is a positive direction. As for some secret agenda, i don't think it's a secret what the LDS' or the SBC, the UMC or other major U.S. religious organizations' stand on homosexuality is.

[sctmom]

Did I miss something? I don't remember seeing NJ or TJ talk about a secret conspriacy.

 

Bob, you say if we don't like the policy then we should leave. I do believe the Boy Scout handbook, we all so dearly love, says that if a Boy Scout does not agree with a law or rule, he works WITHIN the system to get it changed.

If someone OUTSIDE of BSA says that BSA is wrong, most are quick to point a finger and say "and what have YOU done for youth lately. don't like us, then leave us alone."

 

 

">The method of leadership was established and approved by congressional charter. "

Explain all the homosexuals who were leaders before the Dale case, please.

 

 

[Bob White]

sctmom,

The Scout Law says "Obedient. a Scout follows the rules of his family, school and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks those rules or laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them".

 

The rules of scouting say that if you want to implement a change you go through the proper avenues. You take your views to the national representative of the executive board. You don't rally to have funds cut or have sponsors leave or put on the BSA's uniform and denouce them at the same time. That is destructive to the youth we serve.

 

As far as yor second question. I have been a scout for a long time and from the time I got my bobcat it was apparent to me that scout leaders were meant to be role models. If there was a leader in my pack who couldn't, or didn't, reflect the scouting values they were gone.

 

As a Bear we had a den leader with a foul mouth...GONE. An Asst CM. had a drinking problem...GONE. As a Boy Scout an Asst SM in our troop had an affair with a married woman....GONE.

 

As a Dist Commissioner we had a SM who had a holiday party at his home, and he was the only adult...GONE. We once had a DE who dallied with a married volunteer (what sex was either one? doesn't matter) both of them....GONE.

 

Scouting's rules have changed over the years.

If you don't like the rules work to change them, but until they change...follow the rules!

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

I don't think anyone on this board is in favor of NOT following the rules, the point is how to change them properly. Even though National changed the "rules" without telling anyone. One's sexual preference does not necessarily make one a bad role model. Scout leaders are role models, not saints.

 

[evmori]

NJ,

The denomination doesn't matter. The oath says duty to God. Now, for you and me, that is the same God. For a Muslim, it might be a different God. Nowhere in the oath does it say you duty to my God.

 

My scripture & your scripture are the same to a point - the Old Testament. Since you say homosexuality isn't a sin, explain why God destroyed Sodom & Gomorah?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

sctmom,

 

The national council of the BSA made of volunteer representastives of the organizations that use scouting (following the procedures approved and accepted by the US Congress) have said that your personal valuesand behaviors DO determine whether or not your a good role model, and that specific behaviors are not condusive to meeting the goals of the BSA program. Those volunteers have the authority and responsibility to set the rules.

 

We have the responsibility to keep them.

 

No one wants you to be a saint. Saints are dead! We need live leaders who can follow the scouting program, all of it, not just the parts each individual agrees with.

 

Bob White

[sctmom]

Ahh-- the "whose religion is right" argument.

 

The religion I was "brought up in" (I use the phrase loosely), the religion of the church my mother now attends on a regular basis, the religion of my mother's parents. According them all Mormons, Catholics, Jews and even Methodists are NOT Christians. My mother told me last year that Methodists didn't "believe in being saved anymore." Well, that would make them non-Christian, right? Bet some Methodists would be a little surprised by this.

 

So according this religion, all of the people mentioned above are bad role models and therefore should not teach in our schools and should not be Scout Leaders. Not to mention the many other world-recognized religions such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Native Americans.

 

Where does that leave us?

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Sctmom,

 

HUH? What? Was that last post of yours in reference to what you and I were discussing? If so I'm lost!

 

Bob

 

 

[sctmom]

Bob, no, sorry. It was in reference to Ed's comments on religion.

 

[evmori]

sctmom,

I am not saying any religion is right. The point I was trying to get across is the oath says "duty to God". God can differ from religion to religion. I feel the oath means duty to the God you believe in.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[tjhammer]

Let me preface all of this by stating: "In my opinion..."

 

I was raised in a Methodist Church, though occasionally we attended Baptist, Presbyterian and a local Christian Church. To tell the truth, I never noticed a single difference between any of them.

 

I do not attend any church regularly today... I'm not anti-church; really, I just find that organized religion has a lot of rotten apples in the barrel and does not draw me closer to God in any real way. I would consider myself Christian, in that I believe in the historical Christ as a martyr who made a sacrifice for the world, who taught the supreme lesson of "love one another" above all else and who stood up to the persecution of the world around him because he did not conform to the way that world believed or acted. I believe Christ is the most significant figure in the history of man, and worthy of my worship. I also believe in an afterlife, though I'm not certain what that is, I know it's closer to God than we are now... and I believe Christ lives on through that afterlife, so worshipping him is intellectually honest to me.

 

I'm certainly no Biblical scholar, but I reject most of the Old Testament as irrelevant... the precursor to Christianity. I also realize that a great many people have been persecuted in the name of the Old Testament, and more evil has been wrought on this world under the cover of that text than most any other. I don't accept the Bible as the infallible word of God, as much as man's interpretation of the word of God... I'm not sure how anyone could believe that and still allow the Bible to be translated, edited and made politically correct by publishing corporations over time (NIV evolving to replace "man" with non-gender specific "people", etc). I also don't know how anyone could believe the Bible to be infallible while at the same time honestly saying to Buddhists or Jews or Muslims or Mormons that they respect the fact that those folks use different "words of God" and that's OK.

 

Religion is a very personal thing... it's quite easy for intellectually or emotionally weak people to be manipulated into just about anything in the name of religion. I believe that, in this instance, the BSA organization has been intellectually and emotionally weak, and allowed zealots to force them into a position that is not consistent with the values of Scouting.

 

Would you find my religious beliefs to be inconsistent with a Scouts Duty to God and Reverence for Him?

(This message has been edited by tjhammer)