Why the Rush

[Bob White]

evmori,

Page 119 of the scoutmasters handbook in the box titled "First Class Emphasis" Says that a scout who achieves First Class First year has a better than average chance of eventually reaching Eagle. The only actual statistics I've seen were the ones released when the First Class First year Program was introduced. Which said that Scouts who did not reach First Class First Year were not only less likely to ever reach First Class but were far less likely to stay 3 years in the progarm. a scout who was first Class first Year usually syed in Scouts for over 3 years and almost always advanced beyond First Class. I will be happy to contact National for the specific stats.

 

I have a question though. Since the Scout handbook says the scout should reach First Class First Year, and the Scoutmaster Handbook promotes First Class First Year, and the Advancement Policies and Procedures Manual promotes First Class First Year, and Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training promotes First Class First Year, And there is a First Class First Year tracking sheet, and a First Class First Year award certificate, what would the statistics have to say for you to support First Class First Year. Does the content of the manuals guide the program or the statistics?

 

Bob

[evmori]

Bob,

The statistics would validate the program. A program without validation is just a program.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

Evmori,

...and a horse without wings is just a horse.

 

If statistics are needed to validate the program here's one. Only 3.5% of the boys who join scouting will achieve Eagle Scout. Does that prove we fail 96.5% of the time? Should we get rid of Eagle Scout because so many boys never achieve it? After all "the numbers validate the program".

 

The program is in the and handbooks of the BSA.

 

Bob White

[sctmom]

I agree with Ed, I'd like to see some statistics. I'm reminded the cause/effect example I heard in a college class --- more people buy ice cream during the summer, more people are raped during the summer; therefore the buying of ice cream is causing people to commit rape.

 

I don't doubt most boys can learn what they need to in order to be First Class in First Year. I agree that it is crucial to learn these basic skills so they can enjoy other Scouting adventures. Yet, I just don't see the correlation of FCFY and staying in scouting.

 

These are also the kids who stick with things they start, the ones who had a higher interest walking in the door, the ones whose parents won't let them walk out on Scouting for no reason.

How do we know what is the real cause of retention?

 

I see that FCFY is an indication of you are conducting a good, active program. But it shouldn't be the one and only focus.

 

[Bob White]

Longhaul,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

 

i was first made aware of the "do your Best" criteria when I was asked by my Council executive to be on an appeals Board of review about 8 tears ago. At that time I was sent instructions from the national office Director of Boy Scout Advancement (I believe that was the title). It included a reference in the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual to a section that explained that nothing could be added or subtracted from the requirements and that the only level of performance was that the requirement be completed and the scout does his best. he was not to be held to any other measure of performance, such as, did he do as well as another scout did or as well as an adult wanted him.

Since this was a major point in the appeal I contacted national for more information. It was explained that the "do your best" criteria was a another way to explain the rule about not adding or subtracting. There were examples of leaders who, for instance, wanted the swimming requirements where the scout swam a specified distance, completed within a certain time. if the scout did not swim fast eneough he was not passed. This was a Violation of the advancement regulation, since the handbook only requiress the scout to swim a specific didtance not a any required speed. Another leader leader wanted a scout who was compiling the his list of animals to identify specific varieties and sex of the specicies of the animal sighted. This also was a violation, for the requirement only asked the scout to name the animal. If a scout could give more detail thats fine, but if he did not know how to tell the male squirrel from the female and another scout did, you could not deny the advancement since the scout did his best and met the requirement.

 

The specific paragraph was from a previous Advancement policies manual, and I could not find it in the current one in the same form it appeared before. The paragraph regarding not adding or subtracting is still there but the do your best statement is only in a paragraph in the cub advencement section.

 

As I have said before the scout must still do what the handbook asks him to do. But he cannot be held to any performance standard other than completion of the task. It does not have to be done to any degree greater than, less than, or different from the information in his handbook.

 

By the way in our instance it was a boy who was afraid of his scoutmaster (and I could understand why) when the SM stood over the boy and challenged him to tie his knots the scout became all thumbs. The boy had gotten his book signed by another adult, but the scoutmaaster wanted to see him tie the knots. When the Boy made mistakes due to his nervousness and didn't tie the knots fast enough for the Scoutmaster he erased the signature from the book. I gave the scout some ropes and a list of the knots I'd like him to try and said "Let me know when your done I'm going to go visit with some of the adults", a few minutes later the scout came to me with all the knots done perfectly. I signed the advancement form.

 

I will continue to look through my files to see if I still have the letter fromm national.

 

I hope this helps,

Bob

[evmori]

Bob,

No we shouldn't get rid of the Eagle Scout! FCFY & earning Eagle are two completely different things that can't be compared. The Eagle Scout program needs no validation. Look at the number of successful people who were Eagle Scout!

 

Considering you feel this program is critical to boys staying in Scouting I feel it needs validation. What about all the boys who stuck around before this program was put in place? Why did they stay? Are more staying now? Less? I think it is more important to find out why they are leaving Scouting & concentrate on that aspect. IMHO, we don't need more "programs" to administer. We need to improve the one we have.

 

And like sctmom, I don't see the correlation between FCFY & boys staying in Scouting.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1(This message has been edited by evmori)

[LongHaul]

Thanks Bob,

I hope you can find your letter or give me an idea of who to write at National to get their present take on this. I agree that many leaders read things into requirements that aren't there. At our summer camp we have three section camps running each summer. If a Boy were to sign up for Camping merit badge at all three camps he would be asked to complete three very different programs based on the attitude of the ScoutCraft Director. Some people are still intent on making things a test of manhood or right of passage instead of a learning experience. Not that "a boy's best" approach wouldn't open another can of worms I might help to curb the guys who need to prove something to others in order to feel satisfied.

[Bob White]

evmori,

I have contacted National office of Boy Scout Advancement and will let you know what I get back from them.

 

But if my personal oberservations are worth equal weight to your personl observations, i see something completely different. In my role in scouting as District commissioner and as a council training team member, I see a definite tie between FCFY and retantion. I come in contact with over 50 troop programs on an annual basis. I can say that every troop I see with healthy or growing membership, especially unit of 30 of more scouts use FCFY and has trained leaders, and every troop that that has failed or is in trouble or has week membership doesn't use it, some even had trained leaders.

 

The only reason I've heard for not using it is the a leader saying "I don't think their ready". The leader's feeling their ready is not a requirement or a method of scouting.

 

And if they are not ready, it sort of begs the question, "who was responsible for getting them ready"?

 

When the info comes in I will start it as a new string on the Advancement board.

 

Bob

[KoreaScouter]

In my opinion, the FCFY "Sword of Damocles" is not over the Scout's head -- it's over the Scoutmaster's! Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good thing, and it underscores my previous point: Scouts who earn FC in their FY don't stay in Scouting PRIMARILY because of the FC badge on their uniform shirt. They stay because of the troop PROGRAM that enabled them to earn FCFY. It may be a subtle distinction, but in the context of where the onus is placed (make sure I got my spelling right on that one), it's significant. In other words, the BSA emphasis on FCFY puts the responsibility on the SM to do his job; if he does, FCFY should happen naturally without having to push or rush anything.

 

Now, that said, even in a well-run troop, every Scout will not see FCFY, and a SM shouldn't take that as a personal failure or indictment. I've got a couple in that boat right now, and it's largely based on personal choices they made -- the program opportunities were there.

[Bob White]

Koreascouter,

We agree, it's a chicken or an egg in a way. But we agree that the goal is a program that makes First Class First Year possible and available to any scout who actively participates.

Bob

 

(By the way after studying the problem for centuries scientists have determined that the egg came first. It seems dinosaurs layed eggs long before chickens existed.)

[LongHaul]

Oh BOB!!!,

Just when I thought we might get over this gay leader thing and get back to the real Scout stuff you gotta bring out DARWIN??(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[evmori]

Bob,

You & I really don't disagree on this. Most of the new Scouts I have had in my Troop earned their 1st Class rank in around 15 months. Retention has never been a problem in my Troop. And we don't stress FCFY.

 

Your personal observations always carry the same weight as mine, maybe more. I look forward to your posts!

 

A 11 or 12 year old Scout that has completed all the requirements for 1st Class might be ready to be a PL. Let me explain. If the Scout has a real problem with authority, I don't feel he is ready. If he is immature for his age, I don't feel he is ready. I have had both types in my Troop. They were appointed QM's when they earned 1st Class. And the job they did was sub-par. And the reason it was was not due to not having the "Scout" skills.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

But, Ed not all 11 year old first class scouts are going to be elected Patrol Leader. Patrols can only elect 1 PL at at time. Even in a patrol of 8 eleven-year-olds only two at the most will be elected while they are 11. So if tou had a situation like my son's troop, with 4 Regular Patrols and 2 New Scout Patrols. The patrol leaders in the New Scout Patrols each have a 14 year old or older glued to them, and the 4 regular patrols each elected a scout over the age of 12. Nobody had to tell them to. They made the decision with their vote. It's Their Patrol and Their patrol Leader they have the right to choose who they want.

 

Adults vote the wrong people into office for the wrong reasons all the time. Scouting give boys the opportunity to learn from their own experience and decisions how to vote responsibly.

 

As far as who is Quartermaster and other troop officers, I'm sure your SPL would respect and welcome your suggestions on how he might select them. But it is HIS cabinet. He gets to make the choices. That's part of his leadership development.

 

"Never do anything for a boy, that the boy can do for himself." Baden-Powell

 

Bob

[evmori]

Bob,

Hey how is the statistic gathering going? I know National can be slow. Just checking.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

[Bob White]

Ed,

i'm still waiting for a reply. I will follow-up later this week with another phone call.

Bob