Why the Rush

[evmori]

Can anyone explain why there is a rush to get Scouts to the 1st Class rank at the speed of light? I for one don't understand it.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

1. Because statistically boys who advance to first class first year are more than 8x more likey to stay in the progam for 3 years or more, and nearly than half the scouts nationwide who do not make First Class first year quit in their second year.

 

2. Webelos crossing over are use to a steady stream of recognition, if that comes to a crawl or stops they will leave.

 

3. It makes sure that new scouts are not lost in the troop program as older scouts work on merit badges.

 

4. Because the skills leading to First Class teach the scout the basics to be capable and comfortable in the outdoors.

 

5. They need to know the skills in order to practice them on outings for years to come.

 

6. Because the scouting program is designed to help them do that.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bob White

 

 

[sctmom]

I don't buy into # 2. The troop my son just joined goes for the First Class in First Year, but it is not in order of Rank. If it is a good time to practice swimming, then everyone works on all the swimming requirements up through First Class. If someone can teach First Aid, then everyone works on ALL First Aid requirements up through First Class. Therefore, a boy could go 11 months with no rank advancement, then suddenly get Tenderfoot, Second Class AND First Class at one time!

 

For reason #1 -- What is the cause and what is the result? Is getting First Class in the first year the reason the boys are staying or is it a result of boys who are very involved? Up to a certain point, the more involved a boy is the first year, the more likely he is to stay for more than one year, regardless of how many badges you give him.

 

 

[Bob White]

Sctmom,

your first scenario could happen, but that speaks more to poor planning than to the goal of First Class First Year. Also your description suggests a mixed troop rather than the New Patrol method. Using the New Patrol that situation is unlikely to happen. Another problem is that you seem to only allow for advancement learning and testing to take place during a troop event and that is not the advancement method either.

 

Under the First Class First Year program, boys will complete ranks about every 12 to 16 weeks. Do largely to the use of a separate program that is focused on the needs and characteristics of new scouts. Yes They can work toward all three ranks at the same time but rarely does this end in a cascade of ranks at the end unless the unit's advancement plan caused that to happen. It's all in the planning.

 

This is not a new program. It has been an official part of Scouting for over 10 years, and was used successfully by troops all over the country for many years before that.

 

Secondly, it's the planned program aimed at First Class First Year that produces the boys interest to be actively involved.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[sctmom]

My son is in a new scout patrol. In fact the troop has 2 new scout patrols right now. The troop has a lot of Life Scouts and a lot of new scouts. Not much in between.

 

When is advancement supposed to take place, if not at troop events? I understand learning can take place anywhere, including home if I want to teach him the stuff.

 

I don't think this is unique to this troop. Look at the "first year program" of any summer camp. They work on a lot of requirements from all first 3 ranks.

 

I understand and agree with your reasons #4 and #5. That makes the goal of First Class in First Year make sense to me. But if troop are rushing them through, hoping that keeps them interested, what do we do about it? If they are going through at "speed of Light" as Ed originally mentioned, then are they really prepared for the outdoors?

 

I know this is an age old question, but what can I as a parent new to the troop do ?

 

Should they require the first 3 ranks to be earned in order? Thoughts anyone.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Sctmom,

 

Your description of the new scouts working on the same program as the other scouts did not sound as though they were using the new scout patrol method, just that they were in a patrol of new scouts.

 

Not everyone believes that First Class First Year is "being rushed through at the speed of light". It is simply a matter of planning activities that meet advancement as the scout participates. It's doing scout activities when scouting.

 

You asked when else they can be done, Scouts can be self taught. My son reads books all the time, sometimes he even reads his scout handbook. Most our scouts complete the fitness requirements in gym class. They sit in their yard and watch for sight or signs of wildlife and bring in a list of what they saw, heard or smelled. Many of the first aid requirements are covered in health class. Alot of the time it's simply a matter of catching them doing the right thing on a camp out. We've had several scouts that belong to the YMCA or a health club, they often get their swimming done there. The Service projects can be done as a family event or through church or other acivities.

 

You really don't have to rush them to first class, you just need to plan a program that gives them the opportunity to get there.

 

By the way it up until fairly recently you had to get your rank requirements done in order of the rank. They changed to the current format due to overwhelming requests from unit leaders, so that for instance if a troop had a monthly theme of first aid, the scouts could get all their requirements in for all three ranks in the course of the month.

 

I guess I don't understand the reluctance to have a program that accomplishes so much training and recognition for the scouts. When you think of how much information they are capable of absorbing in nine months time at school, First Class First Year is a breeze by comparison. In school, as in scouts, they don't have to be experts to advance to the next level. They need to understand the skill, be able to do the best thay can at this point in their development, and then practice and incorporate the skill into things they do the rest of their lives.

 

You don't have to use First Class First Year, but why would you not use a method that accomplishes so much. In most cases the reason is the Scoutmaster doesn't feel the scout shows enough proficiency in a requirement. Fortunately The scouting program does not base the Advancement Program on individual scoutmasters likes or dislikes. The only measure for advancement is did the scout "do his best".

 

Bob White

[jmcquillan]

Well, I guess the kids I've worked with over the years didn't fit the BSA statistical mold. Sure, we had kids reaching First Class by first years end, but we didn't preach it, and we didn't make it our most important goal. Practically all of our boys made first class by the middle of or end of the second year. And we hardly ever lost a Scout. Our program was pretty impressive, IMHO, and it kept the boys coming back for more, but of course, I'm a little prejudice there. :-)

 

 

[LongHaul]

As usual Bob White has the information. I was under the impression that the First Clas First Year approach was brought in in 1965 when they revised the Handbook at that time but that is not important. The reasons Boys who attain First Class in the First year tend to stay in Scouts longer (according to studies and surveys I've seen in relation to Training Trainers) is that these boys have a.) Have mastered outdoor skills which have built self esteme and confidence. b.) Patricipated in several overnight campouts, which they had a voice in planning. (self determination) c.) Have learned skills they feel will benifit them for the rest of their lives. I can't say these are universaly true but these are the top three responses I've bben shown. The focus I've always felt should be mastering the skills rather that being exposed to them but that's another thread.

[OldGreyEagle]

Our troop uses the New Patrol method and we aim for first class in first year, but it seems like first class in first 18 months is more realistic. The boys cross over in February and our goal is to have them be first class by the SECOND september they are scouts. This gives them 2 summer camps and plenty of time to attend troop events, campouts, etc. We have had a few scouts do first class in one year, and the biggest reason is they come on events and are active.

 

We generally work on the various ranks in order, but if an opportunity for a group of tenderfeet to do a few first class requirements presents itself, then we do it. Passing the first class swimming test is a requirement in our troop before a scout may attend a canoe or whitewater trip, but the scout may attempt the test at any time.

 

To keep the boys interested we use the poster and show the advancement of the troop as a whole. (stolen thought from another thread)

 

Scouting shouldnt be just about awards and ranks, it should be a journey a boy starts and relishes well into manhood.

[k9gold-scout]

1st class in 1 year is a good goal; but if a troop is working well and the scouts are having fun and adventure they will stay with the program especially if they are recognized for their acheivements (such as high adventure awards, camporee, etc). If your program works and there are few drop-outs you are delivering the promise of scouting.

[sctmom]

Bob,

My son's troop IS using the new scout patrol method. The new scout patrols are not necessarily doing the same thing as the older scouts. There are mainly new scouts and Life scouts, very few in-between.

 

I see the same thing Ed is mentioning, though. I have been thinking myself that they are rushing them through the requirements a bit. The adults want to get them through the First Aid requirements in the next few troop meetings. I wonder how much the boys will learn. I know they don't have to master it, but I think having really learned the material would mean more to the boys than to just get it checked off in the handbook. Shouldn't first class in first year be a by-product of an active troop?

 

I know that much of the learning can be done outside of troop meetings. But for some boys, that doesn't happen, for various reasons.

 

How do I as a new parent in the troop, contribute to making this process better? Officially, I'm a troop committee member. The scoutmaster has stated he doesn't mind me working with the boys, in fact he is very happy for any and all help. Realistically, I can't go in there saying "change your ways!" and I can't change the troop overnight.

 

Here's an example of a boy who didn't get First Class in First Year (not the norm):

Boy has been in the troop 2 years, JUST did his Second Class Board of Review. Most of his requirements were signed of 2 years ago, I think at summer camp. He lacks ONE requirement to be able to sit for his First Class BOR. He is active in the troop, but gets basically no support at home. He has emotional / learning problems that have probably slowed him down some.

What does your troop do about a boy in this situation?

 

 

[Bob White]

k9scout,

"if your program works" what exactly does that mean? I ask because that seems to carry a different meaning to different people.

 

Also I don't see First Class First year as overemphasizing advancement. On the contrary I see it as taking a low key on advancement. It says you don't have to master a skill to pass, you just need to understand the methods and skills, and do your best at trying it. Scouts have years to master the skill through application.

 

Even the Merit Badge program is not about mastering skills. MBs are to expose the scouts to career opportunities and hobbies.

 

It's units that require scouts to be "masters" before they pass, who use troop meetings as merit badge classes and measure success by the number of their Eagle Scouts,that are overemphasizing advancement.

 

The Advancement program is not about mastering skills, it's one tool we use to achieve the three Aims of Scouting. Advancment is not a goal it is a method to for scouts to discover character, citizenship, and fitness.

 

Bob White

 

[Mike Long]

To me a program that works is one that is fun and keeps the Scouts interested, engaged, and provides the three goals of character, citizenship and fitness. Chances are if you have the first three you have the second three.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that "You really don't have to rush them to first class, you just need to plan a program that gives them the opportunity to get there."

 

I'm stumped on the skill mastery comments.

Say what? They don't have to know the skill? I agree that master is a very strong word but a best effort that misses the mark isn't doing anyone any good. The Scout needs to KNOW the skills. What constitutes a best effort that is acceptable for sign off? A best effort that ends in an incorrect result is not beneficial except in the development of perseverence. It DOES deserve an "attaboy", a "you've been working hard, I'm proud of you", a "man you are real close" and a "let me help you" or a "let's try together" but a signature? Not quite yet. Whenever the boy does the demponstration requirements correctly I'm satisfied however long it takes to get there. When the book says tie a knot I expect the Scout to tie the knot correctly.

 

First Class 8a.

Demonstrate tying the bowline knot and describe several ways it can be used.

 

How is there any wiggle room in that? Please don't come back and tell me that it doesn't actually say to tie the knot.

 

I was always told that the rank requirement for BSA High Adventure is First Class. (Unless it changed and I'm not aware of it.) I was told it was because the Scout was an "Accomplished Camper" to me that denotes either a mastery or proficiency of the basic Scouting outdoor skills.

 

At Star we stop asking Scouts to demostrate basic Scout skills for advancement. Why? Because they know them and are teaching them to first year Scouts.

 

I'm not expecting professional level abilities here but we do expect correct answers and we provide every bit of assistance and coaching the scout needs to get there. This is wrong?

 

An I misunderstanding your post Bob?

[Bob White]

Mike,

 

We don't disagree. the scout has to do what the requirement asks for. I have a problem with the "master the skill" part. The only thing the scout needs to do is complete the requirement and do the best he can, not the best that someone else can do, or the best that the scoutmaster expects. The scouts have a lifetime to practice, apply and "master" the skill.

 

"More time in the outdoors, more responsibilities, more knowledge of scouting skills- that's what becoming a First Class Scout is all about." The Boy Scout Handbook

 

"First Class completes the basic training you need to take part in most of Scouting's activities an adventures." the Boy Scout Handbook

 

 

So the trail to First Class is about understanding and experiencing basic skills. It is not about being an expert outdoorsman. The more opportunities we give the scouts to use these skills the better they will become, but let's not withold ranks until we feel they are "good enough". We need to advance them as they complete the requirements the handbook asks them to do.

 

Hope this clarifies things,

Bob

[evmori]

WOW! Post a topic & everyone chimes in! I love it!

 

Here's my opinion:

 

Boy Scouts isn't completely about advancement. To me, it is about learning. There are requirements in the ranks up to 1st Class that are very important.

 

I feel the "1st Class 1st Year" is putting too much emphasis on the advancement process. If a Scout is learning and participating in the Troop, the advancement will come. I also feel there sre Scouts who aren't ready for 1st Class when they are 12 years old.

 

Also, what about when they hit 1st Class in a year? Things will then slow down in the upper ranks & it would seem that is where the interest would be lost?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1