Why you should be happy George W. Bush is our President

[packsaddle]

In his defence, I know Gonzo1 and I know that although he may not have expressed himself perfectly, he is a fair person and does not automatically equate 'bad' with 'atheist'.

I think he does understand that some people still do though and moreover, in some parts of the world atheists (and for that matter, people who shoot their mouths off like me) tend to die a little younger.

That said I'm going to shoot some more...where does this number '72' come from? And about those virgins...who is it that came up with this crap? I'm astounded that there are people out there stupid enough to believe stuff like that.

Oops, did I just say something naughty? I'm sleeping with my .45 tonight now for sure. And I'll probably blow a toe off by accident, h'mmm, ........maybe worse.

Maybe I'll just keep it in its case after all.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

gonzo1 writes:

I don't insinuate that people who don't believe in God, like atheists are somehow "bad" because they don't believe in God, i.e. godless.

 

Well then, you shouldn't call murderous religious fanatics "godless." It makes as much sense as calling them "murderous Jewish bastards" or "murderous Mormon bastards." They were "murderous Muslim bastards."

 

I can not believe that their God actually tells them to kill any non-believers in order to achieve their place in heaven or some other after life and have their 72 virgins.

 

Why don't you believe that? Do you believe there are Christians in this country who seriously advocate executing gays because their god's law says so?

 

Back to topic, I'm sure atheists who post here and elsewhere - I don't know that I personlly know any atheists - are nice people. That is, they are not "bad". Therefore, I am not some religous person spreading a common lie.

 

Yes, you are. You're like someone describing the 9/11 terrorists as "murderous Jewish bastards" and then saying you aren't demonizing Jews. It's ridiculous on the face of it.

[John-in-KC]

Beavah wrote:

 

A pox upon both their houses. We need an "American Party".

 

Amen.

 

I do not disagree with the National Strategy of the Bush Administration. I do not disagree with the operational art used by General Petraeus and his predecessors.

 

I DISAGREE WITH A GUT CHECK that we have enough forces in being to accomplish the mission. Folks, we have 6+ divisions in country as we speak. The active Army only has 10 divisions. We've generously used the Guard and Reserve since 9/11, some commands are popping up on statutory limits of service. When we changed to the 15 month in-theater policy, we drained the force basis to do it. The Army and the Marines are borrowing manpower from the Navy and Air Force to meet manpower requirements.

 

Today a Major was indicted for embezzling/receiving bribes worth $10 million. Selfless Service (FM 1-100, The Army) anyone?

 

What about shared sacrifice by the rest of us? Don't tell me $3 a gallon gas is our sacrifice.

 

Our young heroes, the privates and Sergeants and Lieutenants and Captains, are being well and truly dis-served by the Senior Leadership (their generals), the Most Senior Leadership (National Command Authority... President and SECDEF) and the Congress. Walter Reed, anyone?

 

As Beavah said, a pox on all their houses.

 

 

Post Scriptum: In 2002, I agreed with Rooster7 and OGE.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Gonzo1]

John in KC

I truly believe (and now many will disagree) that the medical care (that is what the doctors and nurses do) at Walter Reed Medical Center is top notch, best of the best.

 

The problem at Walter Reed has (or had) to do with the transient barracks for those on "medical hold".

***********************************************************

Now hear this! Now hear this! (to attract your attention, insert sound of Boatswain's pipe)

 

I said in a post about a month ago or so that I would not communicate with Merlyn, so, someone please let him know that I'm through with him. Merlyn, send me a PM

 

 

[SSScout]

Osama dies and enters heaven. He is immediately met by Thomas Jefferson who nails him with a right to the jaw. As Osama gets up, he looks up to see Patrick Henry, who punches him in the stomach. Now doubled over, he looks up to see Robert E. Lee who is holding a table over his head and brings it down on Osama.

 

Osama looks behind Lee to see a long line of people. He raises his hands and prays, " oh Allah, what is this? I do not understand..."

 

A deep voice is heard: " don't you remember? I said 72 Virginians..."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

That's about your style, gonzo1; gratuitously insult atheists, then refuse to debate with one.

[Venividi]

Gonzo,

 

Thanks for trying to explain, but after reading your explanation 3 times, I still dont see where there is any basis on calling Muslims in Iraq "Godless" and "bastards". It seems to me that this is a needless miscaracterization that serves only to incite.

 

I had thought this thread had been about Iraqis and the war in Iraq. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that it had been established that the attacks on 9/11 were not done by Iraq or Iraqis. Please forgive me if I am appearing dense, as I dont get your tie-in of what is going on in Iraq with 9/11.

 

I think it totally believable that there are people that believe that God has instructed them to kill any that they consider to be non-believers. It is very similar to believing that God instructed Isaac to kill his son, and that he commanded Israelites to kill other tribes. Those are Christian beliefs.

 

Please don't take this reply as an indication that I must be a sympathiser with those we are fighting in Iraq. I am not. I AM concerned that when emotions are allowed to run unchecked, bad decisions can get made.

 

Venividi

[packsaddle]

Vinividi, Here's the exact quote from Gonzo1, "I suppose some people think we could win by having tea and crumpets with these Godless, murderous bastards that want to kill all of us."

If we distill this to its essence it means that we can't prevail against this enemy by being nice. However, while he does sprinkle some additional descriptions for emphasis, you must admit that he never, never, mentioned a religion. In fact, his assertion that the enemy is godless, well, implies no religion at all.

 

If were to unfairly characterize your statement, I would note that your post asserts that those persons are Moslems and, to be unfair to you, I would note that your assertion implies a certain prejudice on YOUR part.

'nuff said.

So...did anyone spot the trap I laid at the top of this page? I was hoping that someone would have 'called' me on this already.

[Venividi]

Packsaddle,

 

I agree that we cannot prevail by being nice. I agree with you that Gonzo does not specify a religion. I am calling him on his reference to the enemy as Godless, when in fact they are not.

When you say " In fact, his assertion that the enemy is godless, well, implies no religion at all." you make the same point that I am making; i.e., Gonzo is stating that the enemy in Iraq has no religion (or God, if you will), even though they do.

 

Let me add that I have not laid any traps in my messages.

 

Venividi

[packsaddle]

Venividi, Gonzo1 certainly has his own view but I'm interested in yours. What religion is it that you think the enemy follows?

The logical trap I laid is one that traps (in essence) when no one reponds to it. It just festers away with unanswered problems.

 

Edited Part: Oops, I misspelled Venividi's name, sorry.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Gonzo1]

First, a message to this forum moderator:

I will take a brief hiatus from a non-communication with Merlyn to reply to a recent post then Merlyn, I will resume my silence towrad yu. for that, I hope you and others will be grateful as I will not argue with you and potentially make you angry.

 

Merlyn:

You said "That's about your style, gonzo1; gratuitously insult atheists, then refuse to debate with one"

 

Here is what I actually said: "I'm sure atheists who post here .......are nice people. That is, they are not "bad". Therefore, I am not some religous person spreading a common lie."

 

In other words, I think you may actually be a nice person. Being a nice person means you are not bad, got it? You're nice.

 

Attention everyone, Gonzo says today, 7/225/07 that Merlyn is nice. Maybe someday we'll shake hands and have tea and crumpets. (that means be nice to each other)

 

Self imposed communication ban with Merlyn is back on.

 

Venividi,

I conceed that the majority of people in the middle east are Muslims. It has been widely reported that most are not extremists. That Great! Whew hooo! On the other hand, the extremists who preach hatred towards others simply because we believe differently, insert ____ religion, we just believe differently. Let's say all the terrorist killers in Iraq are Muslims, they're extremists who interpret the Koran (sp) differently from regular sane people. Those terroists want to kill you, me, everyone else IN THE WORLD sho doesn't convert to Islam. Fake conversions (to save your rear if held captive) are treated as real conversions. My point is this: They may claim to be of a given religion, but are really not. I know this sounds confusing, but check this out. If terrorist hide behind the shroud of a religion and twist the message of the Koran, then they feel justified in their murdous activity. They feel they must brainwash and train their youth, women and children to kill the infidels (that's you and me).

 

Now, let's tie this to how hiding behind a shroud works at home. I know high ranking military officer who has studied gang activity in the United States for some time. The gangs in Chicago like the El Rukins and Latin Kings discovered a way to hide from police - they all "converted" to Islam and called thier hideouts a mosque. This change gained protection from police.

 

In the current war in Iraq, we don't shoot into or destry places of worship or places of signifcance like a museum. We play by the rules. Abu Graib discussion later. They actually hide behind women and children, they hide in home, mosques, hospitals, schools because they know we won't attack there.

 

I call them godless cowards because they are. I can not really believe that God would command anyone to kill non-believers, but rather to encourage the faithful to witness to others.

 

As for religious kooks here who beat up or rarely kill homosexuals, I don't believe their religion actually says to go beat up gays or to kill them. I don't believe God tells those kooks from the midwest to protest soldiers funerals either.

 

As to calling them bastards, well, I suppose some may actually kow their parents, but using bastard seemed nicer than other choice words.

 

I hope this helps to clarify.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Gonzo,

 

The working docs and nurses in the military medical system are good people.

 

The fact of the matter is the Administration, in the FY06, 07, and 08 budgets, has tried to reduce funding for the Veteran's Administration health care system and the Military Medical Departments.

 

Only Congress has helped them, and they not enough.

 

To be honest, the Medical Departments right now need an open appropriation.

 

Anything less is anathema to this Veteran.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Gonzo1, calling religious terrorists "godless" is saying they can't be believers, they must be atheists. That's an insult to atheists, even if "some of my best friends are atheists."

[Venividi]

Gonzo,

Thanks for the additional explanation; it does help clarify, and I better understand your view.

 

While you believe that they are Godless, everything that I know about them is that they are extremely motivated by their view of God. I acknowledge that I could be wrong; that they are motivated by something else and are using religion and God solely as a cover. There are people that do so, but I do think that is more likely in this case that they do believe in God.

 

I do agree with you in believing that God would not command people to kill others simply because they dont believe. I agree with you on the problems with fanaticism; I believe that most people want to live in a peaceful environment, regardless of their religion. That does not mean that the enemy, or kooks, etc., involved does not believe in God (i.e., are Godless), or are not finding their motivation in what they believe to be God's message. One can find statements in both the Koran and the Bible to support actions that you and I and others that we would consider rational people would find unthinkable.

 

thanks for listening.

[packsaddle]

Heh, heh, Gonzo1, you just reminded me of something. Shortly after our wedding my wife began regularly calling me a 'bastard'...even in front of my mother, no less, heh, heh. She had to choke back some of her better stuff after we had kids, heh, heh. We're now edging up on our anniversary for 30 years of bliss, heh, heh, unless I catch an ice pick in my ear in my sleep some night soon. But it's been an experience. Have a great day!