Broken Rules and

[Rooster7]

Why is it, every time an adult leader breaks a perceived BSA policy or rule (even "small" ones), the adult is portrayed as "poorly trained" and/or as some sort of self serving, egotistical, "the boys be damned" maniac? Is it possible, while he is not being fully faithful to some small portion of the program, that he is a fully capable and caring person, a true mentor for the boys? Isn't possible that the program is not perfect? Is BSA a religion or a boys program?

 

I'm not suggesting any changes to the program. The fact is, I like BSA pretty much the way it is. So much so, I do pick my fair share of fights to keep the program, as I perceive it was designed to be. I am suggesting - There seems to be a mentally among many of us (myself included) that elevates the Scouting program to something more than what it ought to be. All of the debates concerning policy and rules are worth having, but sometimes I think we lose perspective. Something to thing about...

 

[Bob White]

Why would a leader purposely not follow the program once they've learned it? Why are the few posters who reinforce the proven scout methods treated as extremists? Why would an adult choose to promote their ideals over the scouting ideals, or simply pick and choose the ones they like and the ones they ignore?

 

I am sure that your questions seem as valid to you as mine do to me.

 

Bob

[Rooster7]

Actually, I can understand and relate to most of your questions. Although, I think the norm is to treat the adult offender as some sort of pariah, not the other way around. I just think we go overboard sometimes (and I'm as guilty as anybody). It's not meant to be a personal attack on anyone. Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way...Just asking?

[sctmom]

Good subject Rooster.

I think that everyone, at some time, expects BSA to be the answer to every thing our boys need. That it is there to teach them EVERY life skill imaginable.

 

Leaders are human. As much as everyone says "there are standards", we must also keep in mind there are humans involved. Every leader is different, every boy is different, therefore, every situation will be different. Adults make mistakes too. It takes a lot courage and bravery to admit a mistake and correct it.

 

I see so many posts about each boy should meet the requirements exactly as stated, no more, no less. That is a good policy. But if we get into nit-picking (admit it, we all do it), we can say Scout Bob spent longer discussing the meaning of the Scout Oath than Scout Joe did. This can happen even with the same adult working with each boy on the same day.

 

I do wonder and worry about the leaders that blatently break rules and policies. Those who figure they need no training because "this is the way it was done when I was in Scouts way back when." Or "this is the way I discipline my children."

 

 

[dan]

I would have to ask why do you think it is okay to break a small rule?

Is that like breaking a small law?

Rules are made for reasons, and they are also made to be changed not broken.

Now how would you explain to a scout that some rules are okay to be ignored? And not confuse him.

Notice I said what they perceive as a small rule, what you may perceive as a small rule I may look as a huge rule.

Which is why WE ALL are so vocal.

Some more than others.

YIS

 

[evmori]

Rooster7,

I thought you were on sabatical!!!

 

Good thread. I, too, like the BSA for the most part. There are some people in paid positions whom I don't feel know their knee from their elbow. These are the ones who really get under my skin. And the "yes" men! I could go on for hours about this, but I won't.

 

I think we need to remember that a lot of what we feel is BSA policy isn't. A lot are guidelines. While I agree with most, there are those I think are stupid. A couple examples. Not turning a Cub upside down to place his Bobcat badges on because of potential liability. Not using the acronym PADBALLS to help teach safe swim defense because it contains the word BALLS. To me, these type of guidelines are stupid. Why you say. Well, I was always taught to plan for the norm & expect exceptions. If you start planning for exceptions you will have so many restrictions that event the best human in the worls wouldn't meet the requirements!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

[Bob White]

We stopped turning new cubs upside down because for some children being up-ended by a stranger in front of a crowd of other strangers, isn't as fun for them as it evidently is for you. How many small children are you wiling to frighten for the sake of "tradition"?

[shemgren]

As a Commissioner, I have the mandate to serve my units in providing the best Scouting to youth served by that unit.

 

It has been my experience that the adult leaders, like the youth, require nudges from time to time, to keep them compliant with BSA policies and guidelines. By atending Committee meetings and troop meetings, I keep on the watch for rule and policy infractions and violations.

 

With new adult leaders, they need more guidance then more experienced leaders. However, I see more violations by experienced, trained leaders, then the new, inexperienced ones. THe attitude is often, "don't tell me to do Scouting."

 

The rules are often in place for the protection of 1) the youth, 2) the adult volunteers, 3) the BSA in general.

 

As stated in the New Leader Essentials training video, the youth are the reason that we do all things we do.

 

Scott Hemgren

ADC

Central Minnesota

[FScouter]

Rooster7 Your comments at the top of this thread hit home. Ive been accused in these forums of being untrained too. There seems to be a holier-than-thou tone present in some posts. Folks come here for new ideas and to see how others deal with issues. Why do they have to be belittled in the process?

 

One cannot become expert at the Scouting game overnight. It is a continuous learning process. In my situation, I came back into Scouting with zero knowledge other that what I learned as a youth member. After participating in several trainings, and working with the troop, Im a lot better at it than on day one. But here, express an opinion that conflicts with anothers interpretation of Scouting aims and methods, and youre likely to get your nose rubbed in it.

 

We dont all have 25+ years of experience and we havent all been personally trained by Bill Hillcourt. But were not untrained and were not out to re-invent the program, and we dont intentionally violate rules and policies. We're here to learn more and become better leaders.

 

[ScouterPaul]

Bump to FScouter

I think all of us who post on this forum do so because we take our Scouting roles seriously. I know that I make a mistake of some sort every day of my life. I'm here to learn and share and hopefully make the scouting program that I offer better.

[Bob White]

Fscouter,

Speaking for myself. I apologize if I have brlittled anyone. i do not apologize for pointing out the scout methods and policies that are being ignored by trained scouters.

 

I remain curious as to why when references are given to basic scout manuals the show the correct scout method, we receive such hostile replies. how come no one has said. "Wow, I haven't let my scouts use the patrol method, we'll have to make some changes." Instead we get "Thats not what we do, how dare you let the boys control their own troop."

 

There seems to be people here who want new ideas as long as it is not the BSA methods that they have yet to use.

 

I make no apologies for believing in the scouting program as it is designed and evolves. when I see and hear of the "MY TROOP" scouting rather than "the boy's troop" of scouting, all I can see are the hundreds if not thousands of boys nation-wide who leave with a bad taste in their mouths toward a program they never really experienced.

 

There is no way anyone could have attended training and especially been a trainer and not know of Patrol Activities and the Patrol Method. That would be like going to a zoo and not seeing any animals.

 

If you are a new leader why be asking for NEW ways to do things. Why aren't you asking for the BSA way of doing thing?

 

[evmori]

BobWhite,

When I was a Cubmaster, we turned the new Bobcats upside down to pin their badge on. When they had done their 1st good turn, they could then get mom to sew it on the correct way. Naturally we didn't just grab the kids & turn them over. I'm not an idiot! They new this would happen well ahead of time & they were looking forward to it. It also made the ceremony more memorable. If a Cub didn't want to be turned over, that was OK.

 

I have never heard of any Cub or parent complaining about this ceremony. Nor have I ever heard of anyone being injured. In a lot of cases, this helped some kids get over a fear of being in front of a big group and doing something.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[evmori]

BobWhite,

 

I use the term "My Troop" because ultimatly, I am responsible for the entire Troop regardless if it is boy run (as mine is) or not. If you don't feel this way, then something is wrong.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[Bob White]

Evmori,

 

This is a huge program with thousands of units. I realize that you probaly took every precaution, but not every one does. As stated before the problem eith trusting in common sense is that it isn't common. The rules have to apply to every for the good of the welfare of all boys. I sure you would would rather err on the side of protecting the scout then not.

 

Bob

[Bob White]

Let's try that again with correct spelling.

Evmori,

 

This is a huge program with thousands of units. I realize that you probably took every precaution, but not everyone does. As stated before the problem with trusting in common sense is that it isn't common. The rules have to apply to everyone for the good of the welfare of all boys. I'm sure you would would rather err on the side of protecting the scout then not.

 

Bob

 

P.S

I always saw my as being ultimately responsible for seeing that scouts developed into leaders. The ultimate responsibility for the success of the troop was in the capable hands of the scouts. It was their troop, I had the priviledge of being the scoutmaster. I made sure that the boys knew how to lead and that no-one was injured. I had my troop when I was a Boy scout, now it's the boys turn to have theirs.

 

If you were a parent and not a scoutmaster, which style would you prefer for your son's troop?

 

Happy Scouting,

Bob