Bob White Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 Rooster7, In all due respect. I think everyone in this string has said "first find out if he knows the rules" the difference is that some, yourself included, are saying sure he's wrong, but hey! cut your hair anyway. Capitualtion, is that what we are supposed to be teaching? The "obedient" part of the scout law that is being ignored here is not being violated by the scout, but by the Scoutmaster. As participating citizens we do not "give in" to a perceived authority that violates our rights. And while I have the floor, you need to get over the idea that Council and District are higher entities. We are volunteers just like any volunteer. Only we help support dozens or even hundreds of units rather then just one. We are not bosses over the units. Those of us in Commissioner service do have a resposibility to see that local units follow policy and program regulations, and we take that charge earnestly. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 I realize and accept the fact that doing what's right may mean grekonsz should go to council. Perhaps the Scoutmaster is as bad as everyone seems to think he is. If so, I wouldn't object. However, as I said, I'm not willing shout at the top of lungs that justice needs to be done when I don't know much about the people involved. Despite the reality for grekonsz, this is merely a theoretical exercise for the rest of us. A lot of times things are not what they appear to be, and I don't think we can say much from where we're sitting. Alas, it appears that I am in a minority...Maybe I'm one of those egotistical Scout leaders. Maybe I should ask jmcquillan. He apparently can figure out a lot about a person and/or situation with just a few words. I'm not quite that wise yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungBlood Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 Bob, THIS "Those of us in Commissioner service do have a resposibility to see that local units follow policy and program regulations, and we take that charge earnestly." CONFLICTS WITH THIS "And while I have the floor, you need to get over the idea that Council and District are higher entities" Aren't you implying that the Council and District can tell a scoutmaster he is wrong. If he is wrong and refuses to change can't the Council and/or District remove him as Scoutmaster. I have always thought that to be true! How is it then, If you aren't a higher entity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted March 6, 2002 Share Posted March 6, 2002 Ever make a sacrifice for someone you respected, even though you had a right to do otherwise? This is not capitulation. Whether or not the Scoutmaster is right or wrong is not my point. I'm not even suggesting to grekonsz what he should do, because I don't know the particulars. I AM suggesting that he knows the particulars and a haircut may or may not be reasonable. It depends on all of the factors that he knows and we don't. And yes, as an Eagle, he ought to be noble. If he makes a sacrifice for a SM (even one who's wrong) and does it for the right reasons, I respect that...What those reasons might be; only grekonsz would know. If there is no good reason, then fine, I accept that too. But grekonsz is the only one who can truly say. The rest of us are outsiders looking in. At least I'm willing to admit that my soapbox is made of wood (not steel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Im dismayed that so many posters seem to want to see this Scoutmasters head in a basket. The boy hasnt been denied his rank. Hes got a little bump in his path to Eagle. He cant deal with this without seeking the intervention of a higher authority (or lower support layer as is apparently the official BSA phrase)? Im not defending the Scoutmaster in the least. He is wrong. But the world is full of people that are wrong and things that arent fair. Get used to it. Thats part of whats wrong with society today. Too many people want some higher authority or judicial system to step in and make right all the injustices they encounter in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slontwovvy Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 The BSA does not teach capitulation--but it does teach you to pick your battles. Grekonsz just needs to choose if the battle is important enough to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
featherswillfly Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Het there greknosz, You may come join our area. Our district advancements chair is of Indian decent and has very long black hair. We have many a SM with long hair, beards, and earrings. Congratulations ahead of time for getting your Eagle. Best advice "follow your heart" you'll never go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Young Blood, No volunteer has the authority to remove another volunteer, with one exception. The Charter Organization Representative can remove the unit membership from any unit volunteer or member within their unit. The Council Executive is the only local professional authority who can remove a volunteer's membership. This is usaully only done if there was a youth protection issue involved, of if unit funds were misappropriated. In the case we are discussing the commissioner or district advancement person would simply notify the parent of their right to appeal. The action would then go before the District or Council Advencement committee and they would confirm the scout has met all official requirements and grant the advancement. Leaving the scoutmaster angry at the District for doing what he should have done to begin with. The volunteers at the district and council level are charged with seeing that "every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scout unit". We are here to help the scout and the scouter succeed. but the rules that govern the game are the rules of the BSA not the personal rules of units or individuals. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedicated Dad Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 A Scout is Obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.What are troop rules? Can there be troop rules for personal appearance? If a scout thinks the rules are unfair isnt it his obligation to change them himself and not having an adult intervene for him? Talk about it amongst yourselves, Ill get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Dedicated Dad, What are you talking about? It is not the scout who is breaking the rules here! It is the Scoutmaster. Your quote is irrelavent! The Scoutmaster has no authority-zero-none when it comes to advancement requirements. The scout needs to do what is in his Handbook. Nothing more nothing less. I challenge you to find one iota of reference to hair length in the BSA advancement program. Just one! Who cares what the troop rule is. We have already quoted chapter and verse to you that no unit or individual can add to or subtract from the advancement requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedicated Dad Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 What are you talking about? Troop rules. Do they exist or not? If they exist can they be broken without consequence? Can you answer that question?Who cares what the troop rule is. You obviously. I challenge you to find one iota of reference to hair length Find me a reference that says painted fingernails, purple hair, tattoos, nose and eyebrow piercings and wearing dresses is not fitting the image of an Eagle scout? I'm disappointed that you would put your personal predjudices Im disappointed that you would insinuate such a thing, you and jmcquillan have got to stop your conspiracy theories, they are not becoming and unscoutlike! I have maintained though out my posts that he should take care of this situation on his own, nothing more nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedicated Dad Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Hehehe...The edit function never ever, never, never, never works! Who cares what the troop rule is. You obviously don't!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 DD where do you get the idea I care about troop Rules? I have made it clear I care about the BSA rules, and a troop CANNOT write regs that change or oppose BSA regs. There are no rules against any of the things you mentioned except possible dresses and I have a photo from a World Jamboree that you might be interested in with scouts in sarongs, skirts and dresses. It is not your job to judge the IMAGE of an Eagle Scout. It is your job to deliver the BSA program not the Dedicated Dad program! Again I ask you to present one BSA resource or regulation that allows you to deny this scout his advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedicated Dad Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 I have made it clear I care about the BSA rules, and a troop CANNOT write regs that change or oppose BSA regs. Im not an expert like you but how does a troop rule, If one existed like this one, change or oppose BSA regs? There are no rules against any of the things you mentioned except possible dresses and I have a photo from a World Jamboree that you might be interested in with scouts in sarongs, skirts and dresses. Then lets say just a bra and panties for the extreme argument sake but its OK if you want to defend cross dressing. Why is a dress against the rules if there is no requirement for a uniform? Is it for personal appearance? It is not your job to judge the IMAGE of an Eagle Scout. It is your job to deliver the BSA program not the Dedicated Dad program! I said troop rules not my rules, lets try and stay on point. You cant even answer the question if troop, family or school rules are broken do they have any consequences, PERIOD? Again I ask you to present one BSA resource or regulation that allows you to deny this scout his advancement. Are there any digressions that deny advancement? Obviously a "dress" conflicts with advancement, what else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Is it possible you could stay on topic for one post? (I think the vein in my forhead is about to explode:->). The Policies of the BSA are specific. A scout has only to do the things required of him in the Official Boy Scout Hanbook. No person or persons may add or subtract from these requirements. We are discussing a specific and real incident not your personal fairy tale of scouts in undergarments. We are talking hair length and it would be apreciated if you stuck to the topic. You cannot keep this scout from advancing due to hairlength. Any District, Council or National Board of review will over turn you (as they laugh at you) for such a hideous misuse of your responsibilities as an adult leader. I have to go now. Please feel free to continue your thoughts of undergarments in the privacy of your own home or office. But I don't feel this is the proper bulliten board to post them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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