Scouting's Real Gay Policy

[dsteele]

Phil:

 

Thank you for the honesty of your post. I, too, welcome you to the forums. I apologize that you found one as polarizing as this one to read early on. I hope you stay with us for a while.

 

You may have expected to be attacked for saying you are a gay man. I would expect that you will not be attacked for your sexuality on this forum. From what I've seen of most of its members, honor is treated with honor.

 

I am a professional scouter with the BSA. I have been a professional for nearly fifteen years. I support the policies of the Boy Scouts of America -- if I didn't, I would resign. Period, end of report.

 

Although the BSA will not register a homosexual as a leader, there is no reason you can not support your son as a parent in the program. Work on the advancement requirements with him -- even sign the book, just as any other parent of a Cub Scout would. Help out as any other parent would -- arrange the blue and gold, etc.

 

You're not eligible to be a Den Leader or committee member or any other registered position, but that doesn't mean that your son can not have a meaningful cub scout experience and that you have no role. You do.

 

Be a father, Phil. Everyone needs a father and the post you typed indicated that you are a caring and good father.

 

Best of luck.

 

DS

[Rooster7]

CubScouterFather,

 

"I am Gay and I am Good."

 

I am straight and I don't claim to be "Good". I have many faults and sins. I recognize these failings and seek God's forgiveness and healing. I hope and pray you can do the same.

 

 

acco40,

 

"Personally, I believe what many prominent psychologists believe. That people fall into a spectrum on the sexuality scale."

 

Wow. I never cared much for the field of psychology. They have a way of making life much more complicated then it really is. So, if there is acceptable spectrum, I suppose you'd have to put all of the other "non-victimless" sexual behaviors in there as well- eh? Or, do you limit those sexual behaviors and attractions to only the one's that you can personally stomach?

 

DSteele,

 

"I apologize that you found one as polarizing as this one to read early on."

 

When it comes to this "polarizing" topic, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. While I agree with the BSA policy, let's not pretend that this issue is about it's "narrow-minded" members. The BSA created the policy. The BSA clearly states that homosexuals cannot be good role models. In short, you're not being consistent. If your want to apologize to CubScouterFather because members of this forum vehemently defend the policy, then you ought to apologize for the existence of the policy itself - OR - apologize for neither. Although I haven't reread this entire thread, to my knowledge, no one's been hateful in their statements. I see no need for apologies.

[dsteele]

Rooster:

 

I don't apologize for the policy. I don't apologize for those who vehemently support it -- in fact, I am required to support it and I do support it, both professionally and personally.

 

I also don't apologize for those who fight against it. They have the right to do so even if I believe they are wrong.

 

I apologized to an individual who's apparent first experience with this forum was one where there was wide contention and dissent. It's not a pretty thread no matter how polite many of the posts were.

 

The first thread I read on USScouts I found offensive in its manner and tone and haven't spent much time there since. I found a similar thread on this forum and felt welcome enough to stick around.

 

Also, Rooster, you put "narrow minded" scouters in quotes in your post and it looks like you're attributing the quote to me. I have never called anyone narrow minded and absolutely do not believe that those who agree with the policy of the Boy Scouts of America and I support are narrow minded.

 

I also take offense that you say I want to have my cake and eat it too.

 

In closing, if I may quote myself:

 

"I apologize that you found one as polarizing as this one to read early on."

 

I was not apologizing for the BSA policy nor regreting the policy. It would have been better if Cubscouterfather had read a nice one about a board of review or joining cub scouts and gotten to know us outside of this issue before plunging into one that divides the group and raises the ire of all parties.

 

DS

[CubScouterFather]

Hey Scouters, Thank you for your replies.

 

I wanted to report back after last night's meeting. Coincidence? They have no one to and none of the parents were willing/able to lead these eager kids so, they asked me - what could I do? I would have been honored and hid the pain as I declined and said I was too busy (They know Im Gay but, obviously didnt know the policy) My Son was so excited at the prospect of his Dad being his den leader that he nearly wet his pants and I finally had to grab him by the shoulders and set him in his seat firmly and annunciate the word NO! It broke my heart.

 

I am unfit as a mentor because I choose integrity and honesty over hiding the truth? This is the irony of the BSAs policy. Here are some personal experiences to help understand the irony:

 

1.) Admittance to Self: My first heartfelt crush happened the summer before 1st grade. I knew early and learned to hide those feelings especially when I learned that I was going to hell for it before that first year of Catholic School was over. To avoid hell, I scrambled to clear my head of my evil thoughts how often do guys think about sex? - I would estimate that I had a panic attack almost every other minute for 28 years. I finally lost the battle and actually went mad. It was then that I realized I had to tell someone else. I didnt think I would live but my recovery made me realize how lucky I was to be alive.

 

2.) Admittance to Others: Who NEEDS to be told before anyone else? Ironically, I lost friends, not because I was Gay but because they were embarrassed they didnt know and therefore, I deceived them. Its a double-edged sword that cuts either way. Commonly, the mix of terror and elation creates a kind of "Coming Out bomb" and in the wake, you quickly find out who your true friends really are.

 

The pain of being closeted is so grave that it is no wonder a grossly disproportionate number of Gay Youth take their own lives before they Come Out. Where is the choice in it? Many are disowned by families, kicked out of churches, forbidden to marry, passed up for promotion and victims of hate crimes why would you choose to be Gay? Ive never met anyone on the fence about Boy Scouts either theyre in it and LOVE IT or they are not. Imagine the impact on a Scout, to whom integrity is everything, being ousted for his honesty by the very organization that taught him about it.

 

Its confusing. Im not hiding but if I dont announce it I am sneaky if I say something, I am rubbing it in everyones face. I make sure other parents know so its not a surprise when they speak of my partner. And, they do because hes always at the ready to rescue a scraped knee, tie a shoe, or play a game. And, because there is no such thing as girls work, I couldnt think of a better role model than a man who is not only capable of taking care of himself, but also takes care in those around him. Isnt that what Scouting is about?

 

Its so important to update your knowledge and fight the discrimination by geting rid of the old lore

 

RECRUITING: There was a fearful theory promoted by Anita Bryant that Gays reproduced by recruiting youth they never found this to be true. (You couldn't get an average 17y/o guy to pick up a $100 bill if a girl in a bikini walked by much less convince him to risk loosing friends and family for a great decorating sense)

 

MOLESTING: Because boys are often easier prey for pedophiles (more often unattended), it was once assumed they were "homosexual" - they are NOT, they are pedophiles. Of all groups, Gays who label themselves as Out, are least likely to sexually molest a child. Pedophilia is a documented illness caused by trauma and/or repression (denial).

 

PARENTING: Statistically, children of Gay Parents are not any more likely to be Gay (in spite of their exposure to Opera and crafting from Martha Stewart Living - lol). However, they are more likely to believe in the equality of all men and women.

 

WORDS: Please read all of Leviticus. Why do we single out homosexuality when the 17 chapters before it forbid things like tattoos, haircuts, rare meat, seafood, pork or blended fabrics? Jesus is mute. Paul condemns the Romans for homosexual acts for pagan worship and dominating captives of war. The law dictated the woman be stoned Jesus asked the crowd to refrain from judgment.

 

Resources:

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

 

http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=lev&chapter=11

 

http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=lev&chapter=15

 

Respectfully, Phil

 

[CubScouterFather]

Sorry - It's Phil again.

 

Please, no need to appologize for fellow listers. I am quite used to strong opinions - I respect their opinions. But, thanks for caring enough to say something.

 

I re-read my post and didn't mean to be so ranty, that's not my intention. Scouting was always so fun and I was so excited for Max and now this really puts an unreasonable amount of frustration into it.

 

I have some hard decisions. Is my child's involvement in the Scouts a vote for discrimination? Am I setting my son up for disappointment by involving him in an organization that constantly calls upon the involvement of Fathers - except his? My sons always involve my partner like their parent but BSA has a record of excluding the non-biological parent? Children have a 10% chance of being Gay - what are my responsibilities to protect my child from soaring to the heights of Scouting and then having the rug pulled from under him?

 

Phil

 

[tjhammer]

Phil, alas, you're not alone. There are more than 3 million kids being raised in gay and lesbian homes today, and the number is sky rocketing. I, myself, will one day sit and make the decision you have had to make, and it will be especially poignant for me, as Scouting has been such a fundamental part of my life, and played the single most significant role in making me the person I am today. I will so desperately want my child to have the same opportunity. I honestly don't know what I will do, when faced with that decision.

 

When you consider the huge number of kids and families that fall into the above category, along with the very strong statistics that show how generational the opposition to gay families is (the fact that those under 25 to 30 statistically tend to oppose the BSA policy, or other gay discrimination like it), you can see the inevitable likelihood of BSA's real "Total Available Youth" shrinking (which, on a positive note, is the most likely reason this policy will eventually go away).

 

These young families are just starting to deal with similar questions as you, as their boys enter Cub Scouting age: "Is my son's participation in Scouting a vote in favor of the policy I oppose?" Unlike those of us already in Scouting, or with extensive experience with Scouting in the past, many of these young families are likely to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

 

Ironically, it wasn't the lawsuits (there were plenty) that forced BSA to accept women in leadership roles. Ultimately, it was the same experience you went through last night: in gyms all across America, there just wasn't enough men willing to step forward to volunteer, and ultimately, most everyone accepted the absurdity in pushing the women leaders away because they were "unfit role models". Until that policy was changed, women served in unofficial roles, regardless. And I'm sure there were a lot of grumbling "ol' timers" that made it uncomfortable for them (outside their units, of course).

 

Unfortunately, the same role is not likely for you or me. If you do decide to participate, even with the full support of the parents in your unit, you'll face (almost inevitably) not just "grumbling ol' timers", but official ridicule. And if the Cub Scout Pack stands by you, it too, will be destroyed by BSA's response, and in the end, your son, and his friends, all end up the biggest losers. Maybe it's a bigger loss for them than if they never had Scouting in the first place, and had no adult ever stepped up to volunteer at that first meeting.

 

[CubScouterFather]

I agree. I would never endanger the local organization to prove a point - I am also not going to subject my kids to the ridicule of being a scapegoat. It's too bad.

 

Also, what you are saying about the decline of enrollment is much more true than I thought. As this buzz went around the office, I soon found out that all but two families had decided to divert their child's enrollment in Scouting because of the anti-gay policy - and, I'm the only Gay one - lol. Now I almost feel stupid getting my kids involved.

 

Someday. Yes, like allowing Women into leadership, they will see the light that training young men is not all about gender imbreeding - the more well rounded, the better.

 

And, as I think about it, I'm not looking to Scouting as a babysitter - I'm actually active in my kids upbringing and socialization. I guess I was just very fond of my Scouting memories and the sentimental me thought it would be good for my kids but I've taken my Scouting experience and applied it to my parenting. I guess they are luckier than most.

 

Take care,

 

Phil

[LovetoCamp]

Our pack doubled this year! The troop is growing. The parents involvement has been super. The District roundtables have been SRO. There might be doom and gloom in San Francisco, but our organization is rocking. The outdoor program is non-stop. I still smell like a camp fire after the wonderful breakfast of undercooked pancakes, runny scrambled eggs and burned sausage. We had a Grandpa out with us this weekend. He was a Scoutmaster in the 70's.

 

Trail Pounder

Motivated, Dedicated, To The Cause.

[tjhammer]

TP -- no denying your scenario, present day. It certainly mirrors my own troop experiences of recent years.

 

But that's not what my post pointed to... I'm looking ahead a few years, as the generation (my generation) of today's young parents bring kids toward the program, and as a growing gay family demographic becomes a significant percentage of the TAY. No doomsday looming, but more and more families will be dealing with the this issue, not less and less.

[cjmiam]

My previous posts on this thread are somewhat vague and I do not intend to reread the entire thread. However, one thing is for certain, my opinion and thoughts remain the steadfast. As Americans, we are all blessed with an awful lot to be thankful for. We could have been born in a country where the government determines what we think, with whom we associate with, what we say, where we work and just about everything else we do. But thankfully thats not America. The Land of the Free provides each citizen an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our Constitution provides a clear picture of how the government is NOT to interfere in our lives and the Bill of Rights establishes even more clarity to protect our citizens. It should be noted however, that your rights could never discount my rights. CubScouterFather, while your intentions are notable and your love and concern for your child is commendable, its irrelevant to my right to freely associate with whom I choose. I have no intention to demean you or your intensions, but will do my best to be respectful, asking only for respect in return.

 

Ive never cared much for the doom and gloom theorists. In fact I constantly see problems as opportunities. The Scouting program in my area shows no sign of stopping. And like Trail Pounder, our units continue to grow and funding continues to rise. All this after 93 years of providing character education to young people. Recently it seems that some have resorted to finding judges that are willing to legislate from the bench when things arent going their way. The same individuals demanding tolerance are the first ones to wage a court battle against the BSA, because they cant get their way. What about my rights granted to me by God and our Constitution? It will be a terrible day in this country when the government determines with whom I must associate with. CubScouterFather, you sound like a very nice person and I bet we could even be friends. I have a gay cousin and we get along great. I love her very much. But my love for her isnt based on what groups shes affiliated with. Instead, its because of who she is as a person. Would I allow my kids to stay at her house? Certainly! Would I allow her to be a leader in my Scout troop? No. The parents have enlisted their children into a program that they believe in. Many specifically because of the values we have as an organization. Those same values are expected and demanded to be present in our leaders.

 

If a group of people believes they were born unhelpful wish to be leaders of our program, should we let them? What about a group that scientists have determined was born untrustworthy from birth? What about those that dont believe in God? What about those that stomp on the flag and yell death to America? From your statement, you seem to think that the BSA would be a more well rounded program if we allowed gay leaders. I believe that millions of parents already believe that Scouting is the most complete well-rounded character development program available to youth. To include a group while sacrificing our values is not our burden. As I know Ive stated before, if some are so convinced that the Scouting program would be better with gay leaders, might I suggest they start a similar program and use it as their experiment.

 

With all the court battles, laws, regulations, bans and the like, I see my freedoms slowly eroding away. How long will it be before my local Lions club must allow members that dont believe in helping the blind. How long will it be before my church must allow atheists? How long will it be before my company must hire a black person instead of a white person even though he is less qualified? Oh wait, thats already happening.

 

This country was founded on equality. Everyone has the right to pursue his or her dreams. Instead of some dwelling on how unfair they believe our laws are or how they have been victimized, why cant people return to the values that made this country great? Hard work, perseverance, and good `ol American know-how would surely go a lot further than looking for hand outs, court battles and citizens having to sacrifice their freedoms. (Please note some of this is not directed at you, but rather just my rant on general opportunities facing America)

 

Tjhammer, it seems that you think that Scouting will inevitably be required to deal with the gay family demographic that according to your number (where did you get it) would be about 4% of the youth population. I dont believe that is Scoutings burden. We already have a program for any boy that meets the registration requirements. It is up to his parents to determine what is best for their child. CubScouterFather, registering your son in Scouting program is not a vote of any sort unless you believe it is. And if thats the case, Id recommend looking a little deeper inside yourself. My guess is that deep down inside you would never want to see your sons childhood and happiness equated as a vote. Scouting has proven itself and stood the test of time and millions of people like our program. We teach respect and ask only for respect in return.

 

Thanks for listening,

 

cjmiam

 

[Rooster7]

cjmiam,

 

Thanks---for getting it. Sometimes, it seems as if there are fewer and fewer who do.

[CubScouterFather]

Again, thanks for sharing from your hearts.

 

I do agree with you, almost whole-heartedly - and, it's not my intention to suggest anyone, especially the Scouts, "lower" their standards.

 

I share my experience as food for thought. Most of you are in the position to decide that being Gay is something you could never imagine, that, based upon what you feel and what you've been told, you can easily believe that it is wrong - but, is it? Did Scouting "lower" its standards by allowing women? Did Scouting "lower" its standards to allow those of color? No.

 

Our Country HAD to adopted Affirmative Action because it was clear that ethnically challenged Americans were acting as if they were superior by birth. And, while there have been cases of reverse discrimination, overall it worked.

 

Just like race, gender or ethnic background, you can't change your sexual orientation. If you believe so, you need to update your information:

 

http://www.psych.org/pract_of_psych/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm

 

Again I ask you: is it right? While you should have a right - is it right? Is it right to pervert Biblical intent to fit your own bias against homosexuality (if you do, you need to practice ALL of the laws spelled out in Leviticus.) Why dont we practice the other laws?

 

Who are you fooling by thinking that you are "keeping high standards" by kicking out exemplary Scouts who, by birth, can only find true love within their own gender? Is that going to save the afflicted Scout? Or, prevent other Gay youth from giving in to their abominable nature shame on you. If thats a Christian thing to do, we are implying that Jesus would do the same. I would re-evaluate that accusation if I were you.

 

Shouldn't membership be based upon knowledge and the honor, accomplishment and integrity of the individual.

 

Phil(This message has been edited by CubScouterFather)

[CubScouterFather]

In response to "test of time".

 

I am positive that discrimination has kept most Gay Scouts from "Coming Out", throughout the decades. Surprisingly, most of the Gay men I know have Scouting experience. Much of this has to do with a genuine desire to overcompensate for being helplessly bound to a condition deemed "wrong".

 

With the growing acceptance of being Honest, it is completely against a Scout's Honor to stay in the closet. Thats why it has become an issue now. There have always been Gay youth in Scouting they only recently started kicking them out.

 

As for starting a new organization - you would still be kicking out individuals who have grown up within your organization. That's why it doesn't make sense. They can have moral fibers and exceed every standard ever set by the BSA and loose it all when they realize they are Gay.

 

Try as they may, the BSA will never succeed in creating a "straight" kid - either they are or they are not.

 

Phil(This message has been edited by CubScouterFather)

[OldGreyEagle]

Phil, you can read through the threads and learn about my position on gays in Boy Scouts. I do not equate homosexuality with pedophilia and I think its wrong that the BSA does not permit gay leaders. I can tell you that many many leaders feel as I do, those whose opinions are not asked and work quietly to try to change attitudes. And I thought you would be a great example of why the gay policy is wrong. Your story about your son at his first Cub Scout event, you having to say no to being a den leader, all fabulous stuff. You nearly had me, then you have to go and compare the BSA with the KKK.

 

Was that your intent in the beginning? to come to this last post? I support changing the BSA policy, I cannot support you

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

Phil, I don't think you're real. I think you're a homosexual activist, pushing the agenda by toying with this thread. My computers blah blah meter started sounding after your first post. If you really have a son, do you honestly think that not being a den leader could disappoint him any more than having dad dump Him and Mom, so you could marry up with Uncle Bruce? I don't buy any of this.