berkshirescouter Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Le Voyageur I have to disagree with what you said in your last posts. As a member of the Jewish faith and the only one in a troop sponsored by the RCC. I have to say I have not experienced what you have said. I have seen the opposet by all Scouters. Following scout principles everyone has bent over backwards to show respect for my faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjmiam Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 You insult me and my religion and you don't think I will be angry? I am more than willing to turn the other cheek. Would you like to hit me again? Notice I have not attacked you or your beliefs. Like I said- your true colors have shown through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Le Voyageur, you whacky guy, I thought for sure you were serious, but then I remembered a statement you made from the Program section under the thread "Some things got to go" "Third, nope, I haven't been chastised, I like pushing hot buttons, comes from being a C.O.P.E. Director. It's a great way to get a quick look into the dynamics of a new group" So, you are pushing hot buttons again and doing a good job, enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 No OGE,R7 and others, I'm not in my C.O.P.E. director mode on this one. It has takened me over twenty years of soul searching for me to understand the world as it truly is. It saddens me for having spoken "my" truths quietly and clearly, the same as I would around a campfire here. It seems that the only way to be on anyones good side on this forum is to go with the mainstream. I cannot do that! So in the tradition of my people I will say my name so that you will know that my last words to be spoken here are true and from my heart... I, Stalking Moon, son of the Nansemonds turns his back on you for there is no honor here. My last blessing for one and all is this, may the Great Spirit fill your days with warm Sun, and your nights with guiding stars so that your journey of life will be forever long. I now walk way for I will no longer wear your chains... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 I am truly sorry Le Voyageur feels this way. Dad, if you are as confused reading the above post as you were reading mine confronting your debating style, I apologize. I apologize becasue Le Voyageurs posting truly confuses me. Of all the things we collectively and individually may be accused of, IMHO, I never thought being mainstream would be one of them. On the other hand this may be the only time Rooster, CJ, Dad, Sctmom and I , et al are ever placed in the same category on any subject.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrews Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 The man who thinks he sits in the place of God is more enslaved than anyone else.... I pray that his eyes might be open to the true reality. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedicated Dad Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 OGE, Has anyone noticed the hypocrisy in Monsieur Le Voyageurs statements? He first said: I see this program open and free to all of all faiths, and in my case and maybe quite a few others, no religious faith at all. and then concluded with My last blessing for one and all is this, may the Great Spirit... Ive stayed out of this one from the get-go, he had plenty of rope to hang himself without my comments. It was easy to see from his first self-incriminating anti-religion statements that he lacked the capacity to be a Scouter in good standing and therefor there was no need to engage him further. Without faith of any kind he is not a Scouter period and if he has any honor he would resign his affiliation with the BSA. Further, it is easy to see Monsieur Le Voyageur has some deep-seeded hostilities, possibly due to complications having been in service to our country, and I hope he seeks the appropriate help to find a resolution. Until then, I would have to say I personally would be afraid for our children to be in his charge. Thats all my humble opinion.Lastly OGE, I wonder how he would feel if I went on a native American bulletin board and made derogatory statements about his faith and culture. At the least it would be truly un-scout-like and at most a subversive disrupter of poor deportment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Long Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Just where do you get that LV has no faith of any kind? I though he made it clear that he followed the traditional faith of his people. As I see it he does not equate the term religion with his people's belief systems. I don't think everyones definitions of religion are the same in this discussion. I see no hipocracy in that, only a shared failure to communicate effectivly. I disagree with LV's asessment regarding the nature of the faith of christ. But I do agree that many religions were wrongly used as tools to further the ambitions of some individuals or groups. There is a lot of history to prove that point but the misuse of faith does not invalidate the message. In my view, the teachings of christ can be condensed into "Love one another" overly simplistic I know, but who can argue against that? How is that not truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekender Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Mike Long, Hope you don't mind if I post an adendum to your last post. When asked directly, Christ said that the most important commandment was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all you mind, and all your strength, and all your soul, and the second equally important commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. I know there have been a lot of differing views on who and what God is and I'm sure my beliefs are not necessarily the same as others on the board. But I do believe that if a person diligently seeks the Lord and is willing to listen to Him and let go of anything the Lord points out to him as improper that God will teach that person who He truly is. God says if we "earnestly seek" Him we will find Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedicated Dad Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 ML, Im not sure he left much room for interpretation, no gray area here. These are the two things he said he didnt have. Main Entry: religion Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&nFunction: nounEtymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- Date: 13th century1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith- religionless adjective Main Entry: faith Pronunciation: 'fAthFunction: nounInflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust Date: 13th century1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefssynonym see BELIEF- in faith : without doubt or question : VERILY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 You are probably surprised I waited this long to jump in on this. I'm sorry that this string wasn't titled 'A scouts duty to God'or "a Scout is reverent', that would have eliminated some retoric. I'm sure at an early point of the the BSA the thought of a our 'duty to God' was based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. However over time that quickly evolved to a far broader foundation of "God" a a superior power that is recognized in a variety of ways, by a variety of organized (or disorganized) faiths. I single out the BSA for this because some international scouting programs are specific to a single belief. For me the best example of the positive nature of religion in the BSA took place at a campout while I was Scoutmaster. One of my assistants was leading a fireside chat on 'a scout is reverent'. A young scout of 12-years of age said "I'm not sure if I beleive in God". The ASM was a Presbyterian minister. He rose quietly, moved across the fire ring and sat next to the young scout. The minister put his arm around the boys shoulders and said "the most important thing for you to know is that God believes in you". The boy smiled (I was ready to cry). The BSA has not intention of forcing a particular interpretation of God on anyone. It simply asks for its members to accept the existence of a greater power, which created us and the world we share, and the BSA asks us to give service to "God" as a symbol of this acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrews Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it LV who said God was a figment of our imaginations, or something like that? If so, how could he "worship as his ancestors did," and not believe in God? They believed in a Great Spirit - God. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Long Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Perhaps these questions would be better answered by LV himself rather than a proxy who tried to understand his viewpoint. I think I do understand him but don't agree with some of his views. From LV's second post: As an adult, I now practise the faith of my ancestors I take that as a statement of faith. I'm thinking his Troop or Crew find him to be an admirable Scouter. LV is a Scouter with strong views just like the rest of us, only some of his views are different than the majority. Unfortunately the arguement over the delivery drowned out any real dicussion that could lead to mutual understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 I see no middle ground with le Voyageur's statements. They are offensive. When we stated our complaints, he returns with this - The anger that I am now seeing flowing my way verifies my observations....those in the majority will close ranks to insult, beat down and keep in place the minority who dare step outside of their dark shadows. Those who dare speak a truth foreign to theirs will be silenced....thanks for proving me right.... This is pretty one-sided, but he is the one doing the attacking (not the other way around). His version of truth is to insult and vilify us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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