Just where do we stand?

[Erizona]

cjmiam:

"You have concluded that because I want accurate numbers that I think dropping the morals of the Scouting program is the right thing to do? Ya know, you really need to take a logical reasoning course. If you cant understand that this poll was specifically designed for members of the Boy Scouts of America, inherent by the mere wording of the question, I dont think there is any more point in arguing."

 

Erizona:

So let me get this straight.

You're calling all who voted liars? Is this correct?

 

I would like to point out to you that I became a Life Scout in 1977. My Dad was a Scout Master and I've been involved with scouting since I joined the Cub Scouts in 1968.

 

All of my boys are in scouting and until yesterday I had never heard of this board.

 

It was my impressions from what I was told, that you were taking a pole of all you could find who were involved scouting either as a parent or scout.

When I forwarded the e-mail that directed me to this pole I made sure that I told all those I was e-mailing that they should only vote once and only if somehow involved with scouting.

 

I didn't know that you only wanted your personal little clique.

 

I apologize for offending you and will never take another of your poles.

 

Sincerely,

Erizona

 

PS I am greatful for being shown this site and will continue to visit it but to participate if fixed poles... well, don't look for me.

[cjmiam]

Erizona:

 

No, I'm not accusing everyone that voted as being a liar. Thats absolutely absurd. What I am pointing out is that posting this type of pole on a single-sided political action site will obviously skew the results. I would really like to think that all those voting from freerepublic were all actually Scouts or Scouters, but my better judgment tells me thats unlikely.

 

If the individual was looking for a higher number of respondents as he so stated, then the best scientific and accurate method would be to post it on all political action sites, not just ones that fit with his beliefs. The individual posted it on a Conservative News Forum under the title Freep this poll on Gays vs BSA. That is not what I would consider inviting accurate polling results. Needless to say that is not even what this poll is about!

 

Im a Dittohead, but I am not going to stand around and watch a bunch of activists try to influence my organization. Thats what they are doing as though we dont have the ability to think on our own. Weve been here for 92 years for a reason.

 

[cjmiam]

And one more thing. Have you even read their board? It's obvious that they think I'm a liberal and gay. Which is absolutely absurd. And for all those that have known me here on these boards know that I'm exactly the opposite. It is indeed sad that when someone attempts to be trustworthy and honest that he is riduculed and called names.

[Rooster7]

Eman,

 

You said - I would stay! And so would most of the people that say they wouldn't.

 

Wow! That's a pretty good gift you have there. Are those people willing to stay because you proclaim it to be so, or because you're the only one who is willing to stand on principle?

 

[andrews]

As much as it would pain me, I expect I would leave. It is a large part of the reason I never got my daughters involved with Girl Scouts.

 

Our church would probably switch to the Royal Rangers program, instead of the Scouts, as well.

 

Brad

[sctmom]

Cjmiam,

Thank you for being honest.

 

About who stays when they don't agree with the policy, I think it is about how severe they see the threat or consequences of any policy. I have looked at what is gained by me staying and what is gained by me leaving. I think everyone has their own level of when it becomes necessary to leave. At some point we each say we just can't live with a particular decision, whatever policy we are discussing.

 

I don't agree with the current policy but can live with it. That is not the ONLY thing Scouting is teaching my son. My son loses if I pull him out of the program. If at some point I feel my son is worse off by being in BSA then I will pull him out. Some people believe having no ban on gays is more than they want their children exposed to. That's is the parents choice. I don't think we can judge each other's principles based on this. I don't refuse to talk to those I disagree with. I respect their choices and what they have to say in other areas.

 

[eisely]

If BSA were to admit avowed homosexuals I would seek to organize a new group with like minded individuals. The policy should not be changed.

[Pioneer DC]

sctmom -

 

Once again I hear the refrain of there is no right or wrong - everyone should make their own choices. I am here to tell you there are absolute rights and wrongs in this world. The words you are speaking are propaganda right out of the Humanist Manifesto 2000. If you do not think there is an agenda out there and these attacks on the Boy Scouts are not part of it, I would urge you to read this book. It is not real long and should be available from your local library. If after reading this, you don't understand what the agenda and tactics are, then maybe a bit further reading at this link: http://members.ll.net/chiliast/pdocs/homomanifest.htm.

 

There is more, but I think you get the point. It all happens bit by bit - the decay of our morals, values, principles in small increments. At some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say no more. That is what the Boy Scouts have done and that is why I am so supportive of their position. People who are ambivalent to the incremental destruction of the ideals we hold (or should hold) dear will one day look around them and wonder what happened.

[sctmom]

But we DO make our choices about associating with people. This is the whole argument the BSA is using. I say homosexuality is not wrong. I don't agree with everything everybody says, so I have to draw the line personally of how much I will tolerate and what I will not tolerate. We all do this. I don't care to be around smokers, because I don't smoke. I don't think smoking is a sin, but I don't do it. I will at times be around smokers but I will not allow people to smoke in my house. Some non-smokers will allow people to smoke anywhere. Others refuse to be friends with anyone that smokes.

 

I have gay friends who have NEVER heard of this "homosexual agenda". In fact if you met them you would NEVER know they were gay.

 

Do you avoid stores that hire homosexuals?

 

[Glenn]

Sorry, coming in late on this one. I voted to leave.

 

Couple points I'd like to make. The one post where the scouter said their kids loved their gay uncle and his partner really scared me. I would never allow my children to go to someone's house with that type of arrangement. It would teach them that this type of behavior is acceptable and God has told us that it is not. In a similar fashion, when my brother was living with his girlfriend, I told him we could not come over and visit until he was married. It ticked him off, but I refused to allow my kids to see that.

 

It's a little different at family get togethers. If either a gay couple (like my cousin and her girlfriend) or my brother and his live in girlfriend come, I wouldn't avoid that because that is explained to my kids as being their friend.

 

Another point.

 

Sctmom asked if one would shop at a store where they hired gays. I think this is totally irrevelant. The store employees are not role models and are not looked up to like SM and ASM are.

[sctmom]

It's just as relevant as asking if pedophiles are allowed or if incest is okay.

 

I guess I come from a long line of immoral people. In the last few years while doing genealogy research I've found out a few things about my grandparents and some other ancestors that are "immoral". Hmmm, strange how that is not the year we were TOLD they married? Did that make my grandparents immoral? Does that mean I should throw away every good memory I have of them and refuse to talk about them? Does that mean I should disregard all the good things they taught us?

 

People keep saying it's a choice of association. I'm just curious how you avoid ever being around a gay person or ever having your children around a gay person. If your brother, sister or child says "I'm gay" are you disowning them at that point?

 

[Rooster7]

My wife and I had our first child six months after we were married (you do the math). Do I consider ourselves to be immoral people? No more than most. Do I consider what we did to be immoral? YES. We were wrong. I wouldn't teach my children differently. If I were to join BSA and say otherwise to boys in the troop, I would expect BSA to seek my removal. Not because of I was previously guilty of this immoral behavior, but because I was endorsing it. Allowing active and unrepentant homosexuals to join BSA would in affect be an endorsement of the behavior. Additionally, although many argue until their blue in the face, I see them as a risk to children (even if others do not). Some folks will submit that BSA does not see them as a risk...I think this claim is false. BSA may not put it in print, but if you believe the behavior is a perversion then its natural to assume the boys would be at risk.

[Glenn]

I'll assume Sctmom's question: People keep saying it's a choice of association. I'm just curious how you avoid ever being around a gay person or ever having your children around a gay person. If your brother, sister or child says "I'm gay" are you disowning them at that point?

 

 

was directed to me.

 

I just told you my kids are around my gay cousin, but not told that she brought a girlfriend. Maybe that is the same as "not being around them"? When they get older (currently 10 and 12), I will most likely bring up some of these immoral situations (i.e. active gay lifestyle, shacking up, etc.) with them and explain how it is against our religion and more importantly against God's desires.

 

If either of my children came to me and said they were gay, I would direct them to a nearby organization (one that Scouter Dad has posted before for example) that will teach them this is a choice and they can lead a moral life. Preferably by becoming heterosexual. If not, then a chaste life.

[Eman]

 

I said that they would stay because most care more about this organization and would stay to keep it going. Public schools employ gay teachers and no one sees a threat to their kids over this. People aren't pulling their kids out of school because of this. I'm not even going to try and judge morality. But I do know that I don't feel threatened by gays and neither should my son. I'm afraid that if some that said they would leave were the moral judges they would have very few leaders in their new moral boy scouts.

[Pioneer DC]

Public schools employ gay teachers and no one sees a threat to their kids over this. People aren't pulling their kids out of school because of this.

Guess again. Have you seen the growth in home schooling in this country? My wife and I home school and know many others who do as well and many them are also involved in Scouts. Any guesses on why they choose to home school? Might it have something to do with the abandonment of education and the promotion of social engineering including a big push on incorporating homosexual "awareness" into all areas of the cirriculum. Have you seen the NEA agenda promoting homosexual education? Have you seen the California initiative to incorporate hmosexual "role models" into all areas of classroom studies? The home schooling movement is growing precisely because of parental concerns about homosexual education and other similar issues.