Judge rules for boy in Boy Scouts case

[OldGreyEagle]

Hey, Merlyn, have not seen you around in a long time, actually LTNS. I remember you and I and a few others went around and around on the government and religious thing in Oak Park, Ill I think. How have you been?

 

So, because the Scouts discriminate based on religion, that is we require each member to have one, then this means any organization that uses public buildings cant discriminate based on religion. I mean I remember that. So students who meet in public schools cant hold bible readings or group prayers or anything like that, right? Or is it ok for the students to hold the prayer meetings but they have to be more or less spontaneous, not organized by adults/any organization, right?

 

If I remember correctly you were a storehouse of information on this topic. And so I have to ask, it is rumored, and again I just mention rumored, that in either New York or New York City, I cant trace down exactly, that Muslims want a prayer room in the public schools, have you heard this? Or should I put it down as a pure urban legend?

 

Nice to see you again and have a good time expressing your views

 

Oh, and by the way, in the US military there is a position, role, or something called a Chaplin. Is it illegal for the government to employ religious priests, ministers, rabbi's, mullahs? How can these chaplin's hold religious cermonies on US military bases/goverment land and not be in violation of the religious discrimination laws? If they were "caught" trying to convert "non-believers" to their own cause, would they be in violation of the rules?

 

Nice to see you again

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

"I live in an area where many newly formed churches who do not have a building use the public schools for services on Sunday. Isn't this discrimination?"

 

No. The school can offer its space on an equal basis to any public organization; it doesn't have to, but if it does, it has to take on all comers. Your school, for example, would also be require to allow an atheist group (or other discriminatory groups, such as a "whites only" club) to use space on the same terms.

 

"How can that be allowed? Yet BSA is not able to even meet on some school property."

 

Some schools don't allow ANY outside groups to meet, and only allow groups run by the school. This is legal, too.

 

Now, if the BSA can't meet on school property, but other similar groups can, I'd say the school isn't following the law. Welcome to the club; by the BSA's own figures, about 10,000 scout units are chartered by public schools, and public schools can't do this legally, either (again, because of the BSA's religious discrimination). There's currently an ACLU lawsuit to stop such charters, but it would be easier if the BSA would act honestly and drop them on its own.

 

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Merlyn LeRoy

[Rooster7]

Merlyn LeRoy,

 

Some battles are worth fighting, even ones that may not seem winnable. Personally, I don't see it as a losing battle. I don't buy your interpretation of our Constitution. An Atheist who screams religious discrimination is paramount to a vegetarian complaining about the menu options at a steakhouse. If you want vegetables, don't go to a steakhouse. If you want Godlessness, then don't join BSA. Bottom Line: If BSA loses God, it's not the same organization anymore. As an old cigarette ad once exclaimed:

 

"I'd rather fight than switch!"

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

"So, because the Scouts discriminate based on religion, that is we require each member to have one, then this means any organization that uses public buildings cant discriminate based on religion."

 

Wrong. Read the court decision. The school was allowing the Boy Scouts to recruit during school hours to a captive audience.

 

This decision was not about public access to school facilities.

 

...

"If I remember correctly you were a storehouse of information on this topic. And so I have to ask, it is rumored, and again I just mention rumored, that in either New York or New York City, I cant trace down exactly, that Muslims want a prayer room in the public schools, have you heard this?"

 

Sounds like you have a badly mangled version of events. Chancellor Levy issued a press release about this back in November:

 

http://www.nycenet.edu/news/press/n6902.htm

 

..."Oh, and by the way, in the US military there is a position, role, or something called a Chaplin."

 

No, it would be called a chaplain, unless you're talking about a dead comedian.

 

...

"Is it illegal for the government to employ religious priests, ministers, rabbi's, mullahs? How can these chaplin's hold religious cermonies on US military bases/goverment land and not be in violation of the religious discrimination laws?"

 

Because they are required to offer religious and moral support to troops, and they can't discriminate on the basis of religion. If the only chaplain is christian, he is required to conduct non-christian ceremonies for non-christian soldiers, too. There's even a section in the manual for Satanists!

 

...

"If they were "caught" trying to convert "non-believers" to their own cause, would they be in violation of the rules?"

 

Oh, yes. You see, the government can't solicit for or against religion; that's why the judge ruled the way she did.

 

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Merlyn LeRoy

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

..."Some battles are worth fighting, even ones that may not seem winnable. Personally, I don't see it as a losing battle. I don't buy your interpretation of our Constitution. An Atheist who screams religious discrimination is paramount to a vegetarian complaining about the menu options at a steakhouse. If you want vegetables, don't go to a steakhouse."

 

Your analogy doesn't work; a steakhouse isn't run by the government. A vegetarian can open a vegetarian restaurant.

 

A PRIVATE school can allow Boy Scout recruiting during school hours.

 

I don't buy your interpretation of our Constitution. It's paramount to a Scout recruiter complaining about not being able to recruit at a public school. If you want discrimination, don't go to a public school.

 

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Merlyn LeRoy

[OldGreyEagle]

WOW, Merlyn, you are one fast responder, you are gonna have to explain who you are and what you do for a living sometime. You work faster than I do.

 

and that Chaplin crack, Humor as well, I guess you loosened up since out last encounter, never saw that one comming.....

 

So, IF the schools allow public access to ALL groups, and the scouting recruitment is done at night, when school is not in session, would the atheist presentation followed by the scout recuitment be ok?

 

And if a scout asked a non-scout friend to come to a meeting, is that ok?

 

Just laying out the boundaries,

 

You said read the courts descision, do you know where I can find it?

 

And thanks for that school thing, even if muslims had asked for space the answer was no, sounds good. Now, if a kid in the cafeteria wanted to eat and liked where the fasting kids were sitting and couldnt sit there because he wasnt going to fast, is that discrimination?

[Rooster7]

"There's even a section in the manual for Satanists!"

 

This just goes to demonstrate how far we have strayed from our founding fathers' true intentions and vision for our country. It's another example of how political correctness is corrupting our institutions.

 

"You see, the government can't solicit for or against religion; that's why the judge ruled the way she did."

 

I disagree with this interpretation of our Constitution. The government cannot establish a State church. This is a given. However, the Constitution does not explicitly state or imply that the government cannot endorse religion or the existing of God in general. The interpretation that this judge is evoking is one that I don't subscribe to, at least not willingly.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

...

"IF the schools allow public access to ALL groups, and the scouting recruitment is done at night, when school is not in session, would the atheist presentation followed by the scout recuitment be ok? "

 

Sure. The public schools have to treat everyone equally.

 

There's more info on the Powell case at:

 

http://www.aclu-or.org/powellmain.htm

 

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Merlyn LeRoy

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

...

"This just goes to demonstrate how far we have strayed from our founding fathers' true intentions and vision for our country. It's another example of how political correctness is corrupting our institutions."

 

Would you prefer that the US military have a list of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" religions, or religious views? I think that would be a complete disaster.

 

...

"However, the Constitution does not explicitly state or imply that the government cannot endorse religion or the existing of God in general."

 

If the government has the power to endorse a belief in god, it also has the power to endorse the opposite.

 

And you might want to read Everson v. Board of Education:

 

""The `establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance."

 

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Merlyn LeRoy

[sctmom]

From the original article:

 

"Discrimination is defined as "any act that unreasonably differentiates treatment . . . based on age, disability, national origin, race, marital status, religion or sex."

 

Notice the word "unreasonably". Forcing a child to stand in the hall while everyone else says the morning prayer, forcing someone to participate in a prayer they do not believe in, making fun of someone because of their religion, those are "unreasonable". Did anyone bad mouth this child or his mother because he didn't join Cub Scouts? Did the kids have to stand up in class to say if they joined or not? Did his name get published around as "did not join"? If his school is like ours, the pack is doing great to get 15 to 20% of the boys to join up AND stay.

 

Belief in God is only ONE condition of joining Boy Scouts. All groups have some sort of conditions. As in my previous post, to join the football team my son must be able to play games on Friday night or Saturday. What if that is my Sabbath? Then he can't play based on MY religious beliefs. In fact he can't even attend the games as a student. But there is a pep rally on Friday afternoon, there is spirit week, etc. The school is pushing him to go.

Is that discrimination?

 

Our school do allow BSA to meet in the school building. Our pack is chartered by the local school. But I bet you that a specifically non-Christian group (such as Wicca) would be turned away if they wanted to use school property. Maybe not being told why, but there would be some "reason" why not.

 

I'm all for religious freedom including the right to be an atheist. But I do not think this woman has a case for "unreasonable".

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So, merl,

 

What about the student that wants to sit on the sunny side of the cafeteria and eat his lunch and cant because he is not a fasting whatever and the fasting students get to sit in the sun. Is that religious discrimination?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

 

...

"Notice the word "unreasonably". Forcing a child to stand in the hall while everyone else says the morning prayer, forcing someone to participate in a prayer they do not believe in, making fun of someone because of their religion, those are "unreasonable". Did anyone bad mouth this child or his mother because he didn't join Cub Scouts?"

 

So, you think it's legal for a public school to practice religious discrimination?

 

...

"Our school do allow BSA to meet in the school building. Our pack is chartered by the local school"

 

Well, that's unlawful. Your Pack will lose its charter eventually, because public schools can't support religious discrimination.

 

...

"But I bet you that a specifically non-Christian group (such as Wicca) would be turned away if they wanted to use school property. Maybe not being told why, but there would be some "reason" why not."

 

And if they got sued, the school would lose.

 

You seem to be in favor of Wiccans being discriminated against by your public school; do you want them to exclude Jews, too?

 

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Merlyn LeRoy

[OldGreyEagle]

Anybody who lives the true Wicca lifestyle is ok in my book.

 

Mr LeRoy

 

I almost missed this, So, if the government is not allowed to foist one religion or another or the concept of no religion at all on a person, why does the miltary have chaplains? ( see I learned, I can be trained) You said the military is required to offer religious and moral support. Isnt the required religious support financed by the feds in direct opposition to what you quoted in the first amendment?

 

How do they explain that?

[Bob Russell]

Merlyn, you agreed with OGE's example of scout recruiting in the evening. In the Portland case, scouts are now probably not allowed to make a presentation during school hours. But if the school lets other groups make presentations, are not the scouts now being discriminated against? If a local soccer or baseball league can make a presentation, and scouts cannot, because of their religion requirement, then the scouts are being discriminated against on account of religion.

[sctmom]

Merlyn writes:

"You seem to be in favor of Wiccans being discriminated against by your public school; do you want them to exclude Jews, too? "

 

I can't figure out what I said that led you to believe that. I said THEY WOULD be discriminated against, but quietly. I DO NOT want them discriminated against. I probably know more about Wicca than you would imagine.

 

I agree with Bob Russell, just been having a hard time putting it in words. If BSA is denied access because of it's belief in God, isn't that discrimination?

 

Also rereading the definition of discrimination then the organization of Parents Without Partners is discriminatory -- you can't be married to join (well, actually you can be but have to have witnesses saying you are not living with your spouse.

Wait! Since tax season is upon us...I get different deductions than my married friends. Discrimination!

 

And I still hold that any school or government function held on Friday evening or Saturday is not right according this logic because there are recognized religious groups who call this time "Sabbath" and believe you should be praying, not partying, playing, etc.