[Wisconsin] State Employees Challenging Payroll Donation Policy - Guidelines Do Not Cover Sexual Orientation

[Dedicated Dad]

EVERY thing I have read that is scientific fact says it is inborn. Care to cite any studies in particular? In fact there is no scientific fact that has every been proven or recreated under similar laboratory conditions. do you only have intimate relationships to procreate? Of course you do unless you want to risk the chance of creating life, and hopefully that fact is not a point of view for our Scouts. If youre insinuating something other than the procreation aspect, and I think you are, Im not sure how it proves that homosexuality is innate and appears to be irrelevant to the point. Roe v. Wade is not about "I'll do whatever I want", Its about not living with the consequences of your own actions, its about promiscuity, its about destroying precious life for selfish reasons. And, Im not talking about in the case of rape, incest, or illness of the mother so please, and I mean this in a nice way, spare us any specious diatribe and circumstantial analogy. My point was directed to the licentiousness of indiscriminant sex out side of marriage and the decline in moral values as its been aided by the passing of RvW leaving a slippery slope for the practice of homosexuality to go under the radar. There are some Christian churches that do NOT say being homosexual is SIN.Of course there are, how else can they justify having homosexual clergy. But I never brought religion into any of my points, how does it prove that the practice of perversion is innate? Where have you read that these are flawed?Ive got all kind of cites that prove the flaws, how about citing a study first. So does that mean I can just "choose" not to be depressed, even though I inherited it from my family? So now its a medical condition and not innate, or are you saying alcoholism is a disease?

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

 

 

Rather interesting statement...Abortions have been around since the beginning of time. So have unplanned pregnancies and homosexuality. Otherwise they would have not had to been mentioned in the Old Test. I'm currently doing some family tree research, it's quiet interesting the hush-hush stories of changed marriage dates that don't match the official license, unwed mothers, the girlfriend who died in the flu epedemic (when her boyfriend died, she refused to take her medicine, she was pregnant). So let's not blame it all on Roe v. Wade. Ever meet anyone who had an abortion? Oh, they live with it the rest of their lives, rest assured. Do I think that should be a first choice or justifies abortion? HECK NO! I think our society needs to offer viable alternatives to those young girls and women who make a mistake and get caught (lots make the mistake just don't get caught). While on this subject, I met the birth mother of my son. She was 21, had 2 kids already she could not care for adequately, no high school diploma, small town with few jobs. Had a 1 night stand --- made a mistake! She could have had an abortion. She choose not to. She wanted to do the "right thing" for the baby. She tells her welfare/social case worker she wants to give the baby up for adoption. She is told "you give it to the state, and it goes to foster care for up to 2 years." Or at least that is what she understood.

 

She said "geez, I can bounce the kid from relative to relative, I want him to have a stable home." They were putting her in touch with a private lawyer when we found out about her. At the SAME time, this state tells people to wait 10 years to adopt an healthy infant.

 

It's one of those systems that really stinks (to be polite). Haven't we all made mistakes that we really don't want published on the front page of the paper? What happens with a young woman or girl who gets pregnant out of wedlock? She can lose her job, her family and even her life (parents get mad and beat her or throw her on the street). If first we all did a little more up front work on kids making choices and parents being involved, we wouldn't have the same issues.

 

Weekender says:

"The moral backruptcy being taught in our school systems is one of the main reasons my wife and I homeschool. "

I don't know where you live, but the schools in my area teach very HIGH values --- but I know that is not always the case. I went to a private school for 11 years, there were just as many problems there as in the public school.

I'm more concerned about the lack of intelligence and common sense by some school faculty and staff. (such as throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they think a child cannot bring a Bible to school, etc.)

 

Okay, I'm stepping down off my soapbox for now.

Have a nice weekend! Let's all go make a difference in the life of a child.

 

 

 

[Weekender]

My main concern with the public schools is with their position that Homosexuality is a valid lifestyle choice, promisquity is inevitable, All religeons are equal, and none are really valid, and that there is no objective truth but everything depends on your point of view.

 

Sorry folks, but those are not the values I want my children exposed to. Although they seem to be the bedrock of the ACLU.

[Bob Russell]

This thread has gone from the issue of the state's discrimination rules to a discussion as to whether homosexuality is biological or environmental. This is a debate that will go on forever, and will simply not be resolved here (or anywhere else). I will therefore not go there. In discussions, I have defended the BSA rule (which I disagree with), and I always point out that it is not a discrimination issue, but a morals and values issue. Scouting involves values, and the leaders are role models for the scouts. The organization simply must have the ability to decide who the role models are, and what values are important. Since homosexuality involves conduct, it cannot and should not be disregarded. As I said, I disagree with the rule, but, in an organization with many sponsoring units being churches with faith-based objections, I will respect and defend the rule.

 

Going back to the original post, regarding the "discrimination" allowed by United Way, and objected to by the ACLU, I continue to be amazed at the blinders that critics of the Boy Scouts wear. Supposedly, United Way organizations cannot discriminate on account of sex, race, national origin, etc. But take a moment to look at many of the organizations that receive United Way $$. Women's shelters, immigrant organizations tied to particular nationalities, etc. Do not all of these organizations discriminate? Yet no one cares. Every time we hear of this issue with respect to Boy Scouts, we should respond that many organizations "discriminate" by sex, nationality, etc., and ask if these groups should also be cut off. I'm sure the answer will be no.

[eisely]

Concerning the question of whether homosexuals are born or made that way, there is an important book out that debunks the science upon which the claims are based that homosexuality is inborn. I bought and started it, but had to set it aside. Right now I can't find it. The title is "The mismeasure of desire..." When I locate it I will post the complete information.

 

The myth that science has proven that homosexuality is inborn is just that, a myth propagated by the national media.

 

Coming back to the original question of denying government employees the right to contribute to scouts, this came up in Ann Arbor Michigan too. The willingness of the advocates of homosexuality to damage and destroy institutions to advance their agenda is real and annoying, to say the least. I won't take any bets that the governor will come out on top on this one.

[Dedicated Dad]

there is an important book out that debunks the science upon which the claims are based that homosexuality is inborn. Is your book My Genes Made Me Do It by Neil and Blair Whitehead? If not, make sure your book addresses the LeVay studies, Hammer studies, Bailey: Pillard twin studies vs. Bailey: Martin twin studies of concordance, Kruijver studies, Swaab and Hofman's SCN Dimorphism studies, and The Prenatal Hormonal Hypothesis. Mom, here are some sources for your due diligence. I believe the subject addresses whether special status, a legal term of art, encompasses behavior as equal to innate condition as in race, creed, color, national origin and gender. If you cant prove homosexuality is innate condition, how can it be protected under law? Should there be a law that stipulates that any organization that doesnt have a policy that prohibits discrimination against football players is not eligible for payroll deductions?

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dad, help me out here. I have no knowledge of any of the studies you list and honestly, I wont be spending much time tracking them down. But do any of the studies you mention explain the following:

 

I have met quite a few gay men who tell me they always knew they were gay from the first time they can remember anything. Pictures of them in their earliest childhood show them demonstrating feminine poses and other "gay" traits. This all occurred before they had any notion of sexuality. Is this phenomonom explained?

 

I understand your stance on homosexuality, and I am not challenging it, I just would like to know how these situations are explained.

 

[Dedicated Dad]

I wont be spending much time tracking them downIve commented on your position before and I would reiterate See no evil. Hear no evil, Speak no evil. If ignorance is bliss, why do you want any explanation or why would you trust my opinion? demonstrating feminine poses and other "gay" traitsI just would like to know how these situations are explained. Your presumption is part of the hairy butt excuse/lie which gets a bit too crass to explain in depth, even here in this forum, but briefly it questions the why would they given such an obvious revulsion. Part of the answer is why does one turn to homosexuality in prison having not practiced the deathstyle previously. As to your question, and I am no expert, effeminate behavior is an attention getting routine, it serves to be noticed and perceived much like the class clown enjoys the focus. Further, gay traits doesnt necessarily predict homosexuality, most effeminate little boys and tomboy little girls grow up to be able know right from wrong. Be careful believing any explanations your gay friends give you, they are all lies but not in a traditional sense. They are dying inside, hurting beyond any kind of guilt you or I could imagine. They need to justify their behavior by creating excuses for their iniquity, its a coping mechanism, and their lies have become so real to them they have become reality. We need to have compassion for them but not as an enabler. If you were truly their friend you should support them in seeking help, both spiritually and psychologically. They will tell you that they like the way they are much like an alcoholic denies he/she has a problem. They lie, they deny and they need you/someone to acknowledge they are OK for doing so, its all about justifying in order to endure their tragic existence. It is possible to change, should you ever choose to find the truth you may want to investigate these two web sites. http://narth.com/ http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org/

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Dad, thanks for the links, I did peruse them and while interesting, both are sponsored by groups that see homosexuality as unnatural. So I will not trust them implicitly. Using anything posted on those sites to "prove" your point would be like using information posted on a Pro Gay website to prove homosexuality is natural.

 

I did read the article "The Innate-Immutable Argument Finds No Basis in Science" and from it understand that no study mentioned by the author supports homosexuality as inate. However, if there was such a study, and I dont know if there is, I dont expect I would find it here.

 

But, I will do this, Imagine I am a space alien freshly arrived on earth with no concepts of human traits what so ever... How would you "prove" to me homosexuality is an aberration? If you give me links, I promise I will read them. If you wish to do this over Email rather than in the forums, I would welcome that as well.

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[kcspencer]

Just for a balanced discussion, the following site refutes the claims made specifically on Exodus and NARTH.

 

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_changing.html

 

Happy Scouting

[OldGreyEagle]

Thank-You for the information KC, this website verfies my theory. This website is sponsored by a group of gay men, lesbians and bisexuals. I would expect their website (Pro Gay) to refute the arguments of Anti-Gay (Narth, Exodus)

 

Is there a such thing as an Independent source of information?

[kcspencer]

Its our responsibility to review all the rhetoric and all the facts. We must understand all biases and agendas. The article I posted was not intended to serve as proof of anything. Merely to provide a balanced sheet of arguments, through which the unsure might be better able to evaluate the case.

 

Reaching a moral decision is not easy. Understanding the rhetoric is only the first step! Discussion, Reflection, evaluation, and prayer will help us along the way.

 

What was intended for us a priori one may never know, but as we search for answers lets not forget that is up to each individual to go through their own process. Much like the Eagle, value in morality is not given, it must be earned.

 

May Brighid light your way on the journey of your soul.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I did not mean to infer you had "helped" me prove anything although when I reread my posting, I see what you mean. I apologize

[Dedicated Dad]

From your article.Often, these "therapies" expose their victims to electric shocks or nausea-producing drugs while showing This erroneous technique may have been true in the 60s but its no longer used as therapy by any credible organization anywhere other than the pro-perversion apologists that disingenuously present it as often practiced. This article further loses credibility when it quotes the APA (American Psychiatric Association) as an authority on any part of homosexuality. In 1973, if my memory serves, the board of trusties of the APA deleted the practice of homosexuality from its registry of disorders, how you might ask, by a vote of 4-3. There was no science behind the decision only a vote and 3 of 4 of the trusties who voted in the affirmative are admitted homosexuals. Further, the one-non/gay trustee, DR. Robert Spitzer, who voted affirmative has since changed his mind and now endorses reparative therapy. Im not quite sure why you think this article is balanced; if youre going to endorse something perhaps you should offer something more than a hit-piece with questionable credibility.

 

 

[Dedicated Dad]

Is there a such thing as an Independent source of information? OGE, Im puzzled why you would dismiss NARTH having read only one article, that doesnt make much sense. If youre going to take a position on something you should use your brain and not your heart, try investigating both sides of the issue. As far as the alien thing, I would give him/her the same advice, go and read NARTH, they have plenty of legitimate and independent information. There are literally tens of thousands of repaired individuals in this country, perhaps thats the best proof I can offer your alien. I personally know someone who is repaired from perversion, though he was never a scout, if youre interested, Id be happy ask him to post here but Im not sure how hed feel about that.