This stellar Boy Scout has legions of merits

[mk9750]

Twocub (or Mr. Dad, if you prefer),

 

You make a very valid point. I certainly do not want to have come off soundling as though this Scout isn't deserving of a boat load of admiration. He does, and them some.

 

But I also admire men like my father, and George Bush (sr. and Jr.), and many other men who are not Eagle Scout. I admire them for what they have done, and in some cases, overcome. It is in this light that I admire Jedediah. He obviously has succeeded, regardless if we "earned" all of these badges or not, just by the dedication, perserverance, and determination to reach a goal. I question, as did others, whether it is possible for anyone to have satisfactorily completed every requirement for that many badges. If he did not, then he shouldn't be celebrated for having done so. But even if he didn't he deserves much credit for the work he put forth, especially considering his physical situation.

 

But the conversation turned from admiration for this Scout to a discussion on general terms about young Scouts and Eagle and Merit Badges. And, although I leave open the possiblity that young men like this can do remarkable things, I just don't think it is deserved with the regularity with which it happens.

 

Mark

[OldGreyEagle]

Maybe I didnt explain myself well, I brought this thread up because of the Eagle Palm thread and the discussion if anyone had earned all the merit badges. I remembered this thread and brought it up.

[Eagle74]

Eagle at age 12; certainly not probable, but at the same time, possible.

 

The measure of an Eagle Scout is only in part what that scout did to earn the the right to wear the badge. The issue at that point is was it a giveaway, "earned" by mom/dad/scout leader, or earned by virtue of exemplary effort, work and leadership.

 

The true, whole, and final measure of an Eagle Scout is what happens after that badge is pinned upon his chest. This is where many fall short of the mark.

[Twocubdad]

Ed, I don't get terribly upset by the boy's comment that all he had to do to earn woodwork/woodcarving is to "carve something." In the first place, if you ask a boy what he did to earn many of the craft-oriented merit badges, I think they would aswer "I made a basket," I made a belt" or "I carved something." Secondly, even if the boy quoted the requirements chapter and verse, a newspaper reporter isn't likely to add all that detail in a story like this one.

 

Can a 12-year-old earn Eagle? Apparently so. It's a fairly easy to plug the tenure requirements into a calendar and see where it falls. Since the book outlines a minimum time to qualify for Eagle, I suppose it's inevitable that from time to time, someone will earn it on that schedule. I've always maintained that if National wants an age limit on Eagle, they can dang-well add it to the requirements.

 

But Eagle74 asked the right question when he wrote, "The true, whole, and final measure of an Eagle Scout is what happens after that badge is pinned upon his chest."

 

Exactly. At age 12 has this boy sucked all the marrow out of the program? Probably not. But obviously by at 16 it certainly seems he has gotten a lot out of it. My old troop graduated a number of fairly young Eagles, myself included. Most of the guys continued with Scouting until 18, attending Jamborees, Philmont, being active in the OA and serving the troop as JASMs. What does it matter that of the seven years I was a Boy Scout, five of them were as an Eagle? What would the difference have been if I spent most of those same seven years as a Star or Life, receiving my Eagle as I approached 18?

 

Granted, had we grabbed Eagle and dropped out of the program at 13 or 14, we most definitely would not have received the same benefit from the program. I don't have evidence one way or the other, but my hunch would be that boys who are interested, excited and motivated enough to make Eagle at a young age are probably going to stick with it for a few more years.

 

Advancement -- including Eagle -- is but one of the methods of Scouting. Ultimately our sucess is the character of the men we turn out, not the age at which they, as boys, earned a certain badge.

 

[NWScouter]

It is possible to reach Eagle as when a Scout is 11. To reach first class you can make it in one month, for the only time requirement is the one for physical fitness. I admit it is would be hard to have ten activities with three overnights in one month but possible. A Webelos may cross over early in the year after being in fifth grade for six months so there is no real minimum age he could be a young ten. The time for star is four months and the Life and Eagle are each six months. So based on that one could be an Eagle in seventeen months ( but you might have to add month or two to gather the paperwork and hold the Board of Review, which is the official date of his Eagle). If a Scout is in a LDS Troop, he will not start until he is eleven and for the first year is outings are restricted. So it is possible but I would agree it would to me be hard to show the true leadership needed.

What caused more flags was that he got all of the merit badges with the description of his physical limitations. I was the district advancement chair for two years and had to deal with the misconceptions between working toward first class and the trail to Eagle and merit badges for Scouts with physical and mental limitations. For up to First Class the district advancement may approve changes to the requirements. For Eagle required merit badges the district committee may approve substitutes but there may not be changes to the requirements of the merit badges themselves. Some of the requirements for some are very difficult for example Hiking and Backpacking .

(This message has been edited by NWScouter)(This message has been edited by NWScouter)

[evmori]

Twocubdad,

I wouldn't get overly upset over that answer if it was the only one like that. If he was asked the same question about Envi Sci and answered "how to make an ecosystem" then I would be concerned.

 

The other thing that concerns me is he "collected" merit badges.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[slontwovvy]

There was a 12-year-old Eagle Scout in Illinois in 2002. Dad was SM. Unless this boy was a true prodigy, a new Renaissance man, I don't see how this award can be on merit.

 

I know at several camps, those under 13 cannot even attempt Environmental Science without approval of hte Ecology Director. These youth do as Evmori said. They tend to lack the "big picture," higher-level thinking skills needed to even make a decent attempt.

[Twocubdad]

Will a 17-year-old's solution to an environmental problem be better and more thought-out than that of an 11-year-old? Hopefully so. The solution to the same problem submitted by a 35-year-old will be better still. But that's not the program nor the requirement for the badge.

 

If we are saying that to adequately complete the requirement for Environmental Science you must have the higher-level thinking skills of a 16-year-old, then we've added a requirement. There is no difference in that versus requiring a certain number of sit-ups or pull-ups for Personal Fitness. If a 12-year-old can't do any pull-ups at first, but does one at the end of the 12-week program, that's just as good as the strapping 16-year-old who can do pull-ups all day long.

[evmori]

Twocubdad,

I think you are missing the point. If all a Scout remembers about a badge is one thing he did, then what did he learn?

 

I don't think anyone doubts this Scout overcame a lot to accomplish what he did. The question is what did he learn?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

I would say he learned how to set and achieve goals.

 

Remember every MB and rank he earned was approved by others who were more experienced and more knowledgeable than he was, and they determined that he met the requirements. More over they made those determinations based on personal contact with the scout, talking with him, and seeing his work. They did not determine his skill or qualifications by reading an article that someone else wrote about him.

 

Just a thought,

Bob White

[evmori]

Bob,

School also teaches youth how to set& achieve goals. I agree he overcame much. But my question is atill what did he learn?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[littlebillie]

"...what did he learn?"

 

well, until anyone who asks that question ABOUT the boy can talk TO the boy and make their own determination, it's a pretty pointless discussion, at least in terms of this individual. pointless at best, and unfair as we move along THAT spectrum...

 

More generally, tho'...

 

Let's say the kid got Insect Study when he was 11, and today he DOES remember that only Hemiptera can really be called bugs, and all he remembers about Lepidoptera is the name - even so, he's already he's ahead of most Americans! Is the idea of a non-core, non-required Merit Badge really to turn a kid into a leading expert on a subject - or to provide an opportunity for exposure to a subject that he might otherwise not have?

 

Yes - I'd really like every Eagle to REALLY absorb Life Saving, and commit it all to his longterm skill set. But if a kid gets Landscape Architecture this year, and can't remember the names of half his list of shrubs next year, I'm not going to lament anything - instead, I'll be glad that he had the exposure to something he might never have even thought about before.

 

Would it be GOOD to be an expert in each and every one? Sure. But if THAT becomes a requirement - or even if a follow up test a year later is added to the merit badge process - well, I think a lot of boys will be discouraged from ever looking into some of these things.

 

Part of the really cool thing about merit badges is that they can provide a terrific overview not only of the natural world and survival skills, but of many, many areas of special knowledge and human endeavor. No need to maintain expertise in everything - the hope is that earning even 1 merit badge can spark a lifelong interest in something, some passionate pursuit that enriches the mental landscape through which we all pass...

 

 

ok, that's the GENERAL rant. As far as the kid goes - ain't met him, so can't say...

[Bob White]

Right on littlebillie,

 

There seem to be an lot of posters on this thread who have lost sight of the purpose of the merit badge program. It is not to create expertise at any level in the topic. The two purposes of the merit Badge program are to expose scouts to areas of interest that could lead to a career or lifetime hobby, and to place them in contact with MB counselors who have an enthusiasm for the topic through their training, employment or hobby.

 

I have read from posters of their disappointment that an Eagle candidate could not tie a simple knot. Having checked the requirements for Eagle as well as the aims and mission of scouting I am unable to uncover any such requirement for the rank or goal of the program.

 

The outdoor skills of scouting are one tool we use as leaders to build an adult capable of making ethical decisions based on the oath and law.

 

If we were carpenters building a cabinet to hold dishes we would use a variety of tools to shape the wood for its ultimate purpose. I would not expect the wood to remember how to operate the tools, that is my responsibility as the carpenter. My only expectations of the cabinet is that it can function correctly on completion. I view scouting the same way.

 

The methods of scouting are my tools in helping to shape young people. I do not expect them to remember all the tools. That is my responsibility. I need to use the right tools in the right ways if I want to see the expected results.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

"I have read from posters of their disappointment that an Eagle candidate could not tie a simple knot. Having checked the requirements for Eagle as well as the aims and mission of scouting I am unable to uncover any such requirement for the rank or goal of the program."

 

Maybe not required for the Eagle rank but knowing specific knots for lower ransk is required. One can't be an Eagle until they earn the lower ranks. And an Eagle candidate should be setting the example by knowing those lower rank requirements.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[mk9750]

BW and littlebillie,

 

I think your points are very valid. However, if I can speak for Ed, I think you miss our points.

 

Lets run some numbers:

 

119 Merit Badges x 8 requirements (my estimate. Also remember that many requirements have an A B C breakdown, too) = 952 requirements.

 

A boy who crosses over exactly on his 11th birthday (I use this for simplicity's sake) has 364 weeks until he turns 18. that means he must average 2.62 requirements per week in order to earn all 119 MBs. Sure, some are easy to knock off even if the Counselor is tough. But there are plenty of requirements that are much tougher. Is a Scout who does almost three requirements per week for seven straight years really getting even the bare minimum the MB program was designed for (exposure to a topic and the experience of working with an adult knowledgable and enthusiatic about the topic)?

 

Let's take the above example and assume this boy did all of the work, but did only the bare requirements for, say, Diability Awareness. In his rush to get to the next badge, he may have missed the chance to be exposed to something the MB Counselor knew that he didn't have time to discuss because the Scout was trying to finish this one up and start the next one. And that one bit of information, so unimportant to the Scout in his quest for one of 119 badges, would have been the info he would have used to pursue a career in the Medical field. Or helped him make choices about his family's care when he was in a position to need the info years later. Or give him one more point of view that would have prevented him from offending someone.

 

Yeah, I know I discuss an hypothetical situation that borders on ridiculous. But with 118 more chances to repeat this scenerio on this Scout's quest, something like this almost HAS to happen. If it's a city boy who may never have to milk a cow who missed something extra in the diary production section of that badge, or an Amish boy who din't quite learn how to change the oil in a car doing Auto Mechanics, no big deal. But somewhere along the line, adults who participated knowingly in this have done the young man a disservice.

 

This same attitude then, should extend to the Scout working on Eagle. Don't add to the requirements, I agree. But every Scout, whether he makes Eagle or not, whether he earns 119 MBs or two or three, deserves every bit of the benefit we as adults can give them. And if that means not rushing so he can fill his sash, or be Eagle at 12, and that is wrong, then kick me out. I won't participate in what I see as a charade.

 

Long winded again, but only because it's important (Do I get any awards for the most words per post?).

 

Mark