Whither Political Correctness//Where does it stop/start

[OldGreyEagle]

After reading many postings on being PC, I would like to ask, where do you draw the line? When my holiday greeting has to be reduced to "Have a Wonderful whatever it is you celebrate, and if you dont celebrate anything, have a nice day" I think we have ventured over the top, off the edge, hit rock bottom, etc.

 

At the same time, I am not sure I would like to see a black faced minstrel show at my next council event either or have jewish scouts referred to as kikes.

 

Does anybody have exmaples where sensitivity has been shown when needed that succeeded? Celebrating diversity is a good thing, Inclusion is what I would like to see, not the exlusion of all things remotely religious, or ethinic related

 

What say you?

[eisely]

Hey OGE,

 

Fortunately PC is not a problem for scouting generally. I view scouting as a partial solution to PC. Where political correctness shows up and can be very oppressive is in the schools today at all levels, in the media, and even at places of work. Scouting is very inclusive and we don't have to worry about this too much.

 

A current example: LDS units attending camporee usually bug out at the end of Saturday to be back home to attend services on Sunday. Schedules are modified where necessary to accomodate this.

 

An old example: When I was working on camp staff as a teen ager one of the most interesting troops to come through was a troop operating out of the Missouri State School for the Deaf at Fulton Missouri. This was back in the 50's. One of the scouts in that troop also had a major physical deformity and had only one useful hand. He and a buddy completed canoeing merit badge. He was not evaluated on form, but performance. He was able to figure out ways to meet the requirements that weren't very graceful, but they worked and we signed him off.

 

Dealing with this troop was an interesting experience for everybody. None of us on staff knew sign language, and the boys in the unit took on additional burdens to make sure that boys who could read lips sufficiently were always around to communicate to their less able bretheren. We all had to learn to speak more clearly and slowly and face the interpreter.

 

These guys didn't know how to sing, but that didn't stop the rest of us from singing, and they were fully into the spirit of having fun and learning from scouting.

[Chippewa29]

OGE- That is a question that will be debated for years and years. I guess that it ends when everyone is seen as a unique individual that is treated with respect and not seen as being a part of any race, religion, etc. My troop is in a pretty homogeneous area. Last year, for the first time, we got a Scout who was of Asian decent. We didn't even think about it until it came time for rechartering and they asked us the demographics of the troop. We just thought of him as one of the Scouts and different only because of his unique personality rather than his ethnic background. The same happened last year when we had a Jewish Scout join the troop for the first time.

 

I learned a big lesson on this when I attended the World Scout Jamboree in Australia. Two days before I left, I met two Scouts from South Africa (in the days of Apartheid, South Africa had to send integrated troops if they wanted to attend), one white and one black. They had been on the trip for over a month and had become best friends during that time. They both loved the same soccer team and had the same favorite subjects in school and enjoyed the same activities in Scouts. Basically, they were just alike. Unfortunately, they didn't want to go home. Although they lived in the same city, they knew they wouldn't be allowed to see each other again. They told me that before the trip, they didn't realize that blacks and whites were actually very much the same. During the trip, they stopped seeing each other as black and white and started just to see each other as friends. I had never thought of it like that before, but I realized how right they were. I've never heard from either of them again, but I hope that they've been able to maintain their friendship through the last days of apartheid and the social upheaval that occured in the decade that followed its elimination.

 

Getting back to the original question. I believe that once we start seeing each other like those two Scouts from South Africa saw each other, PC will no longer be an issue.

[andrews]

A big problem in this area is that too many people benefit by making tenstion and divisions stay around, justifying many PC activities.

 

As scouts, we need to always aim for what is right, and believe that God will work things out in the end as we faithfully work with what is in our sphere of influence. We should care about others based on the content of their character, not any outward appearance.

 

This won't prevent problems from both sides of the issue, but it will make us more steady, and grounded in what is truly right.

 

Brad

[evmori]

OGE,

I detest the term PC. To me, being PC means "If no one gets hurt & it's not illegal, then it's OK."

 

PC does not belong in Scouting. I am a swimming merit badge counselor & for years I have used the acronym PADBALLS to teach the Scouts safe swim defense. Recently in our council, we were told that that acronym can no longerbe used because of the word balls. Absurd? I think so. PC? Sure!

 

PC does not belong in Scoutin!

 

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[sctmom]

I recently read a book called "The Giver" by Lois Lowry. It is a small piece of fiction written for teenagers/young adults. The society in the book has become so uniform that everyone of a particular age must dress the same, everyone gets a bicycle at a certain age, words like "love" are not used because they are vague, the citizens are protected from doing anything "unsafe" (including reading the "wrong" books and having fires). The citizens are not allowed to make any choices because they may make the wrong ones. I highly recommend this book to adults, and then decide if your child is mature enough to read and understand it. It is considered very bad manners to ask about someone who is different. No one gets hurt because the "committee" makes sure of that. But also no one knows true happiness or love.

 

I know I often come across as being PC, but I really think we need to recognize and discuss differences. Just using "polite" words doesn't change peoples thoughts. And we are all DIFFERENT.

 

Men and women are different, people of different religions are diffent, people of different heritages are different. It doesn't make one better over another, just different. We should be able to say "That person is different, I don't understand them or I don't agree with them" without being labeled as "bad".

 

If someone makes you say a prayer that goes against your religion, that is wrong. To ask you to stand silently while they say their prayer is not wrong, it is respect. To call someone a kike is very disrespectful and mean, but to say "that person is Jewish, I'm not and cannot believe what they do, so therefore I'm not going to say their prayer" is being honest.

 

Not able to use the word "Balls"?? That is absurd! So when you play baseball you get 3 strikes or 4 WHAT?????

Isn't this only encouraging the boys to think balls is a bad word. I remember that being one of those words that sent all the kids into hysterics in junior high.

 

[dan]

PC does belong in scouting, as long as it is not taken to extremes.

Not allowing the term "retarded" is great! This came from being "PC". How can anyone say that this is not a good thing?

And PLEASE do not tell me that terms like the above where not and are not used in by scouts.

 

OGE welcome back I was afraid after your last post that you may have left this discusson board for good, your last post seemed like you where feed up with this board, just keep on keeping on, I have learned a lot from your posts!

[evmori]

Not using the term retarded didn't come from being PC. It came from common courtesy. It's the same as the n word!

 

Ed Mori

(Not PC) Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[OldGreyEagle]

In the Rock Opera Jesus Christ Superstar, there is a scene where Jesus stands in front of Pontius Pilate. Pontius and Jesus discuss the situation. I dont have the libretto handy or I could give you the exact exchange. It ends with Pontius asking Jesus if he is who the Pharises say he is, Jesus responds by saying it is the truth. Then comes a line I often think of,

Pontious says, "what is truth?, is truth unbending laws?, we both have truths, are mine the same as yours?

 

This forum is where we get to discuss our truths and sometimes find out that "my" truths are not the same as everyone elses, but if they were, then we would be in the "Utopia????" Sctmom talked about and I doubt thats what we want,

 

And Sctmom, get with the program!!!! its not baseBALL it must be bases and bats, at least until PETA gets ahold of it.

 

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Dedicated Dad]

"what is truth?, is truth unbending laws?, we both have truths, are mine the same as yours? This smacks of the kind of political correctness needed to justify homosexuality, if truth can vary from one individual to another, it is neither truth nor righteous. It goes back to that individual morality thing, if everyone has there own morality then nothing is truly moral or absolute.

[OldGreyEagle]

Dad, I am not sure I will explain this well, so forgive my inadequacies. I had no intention of bringing homosexuality into the discussion. Only that what some people consider being PC may be termed "common sense" by others. In my understanding the term "Politically Correct" was SUPPOSED to mean being sensitive to anothers belief. Somewhere along the line, the term became identified with the absurd and inane desire to eliminate all "differences"

 

For example, According to Eisely, in the San Francisco area PETA has succeeded in having what I would term a pet owner referrred to as a pet "guardian" ( I hope I got that right Eisley)

 

To my father treating an animal (notably a deer in season) ethically is a clean shot through the heart. Two widely divergent ideas but based on a view of what is true to each.

 

I hope I explained that better than before

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[sctmom]

"truth" doesn't always mean "moral". For many children in this country, the truth is that parents are dependable, take care of you, make you go to school, etc. The "truth" for some children is that adults cannot be trusted, people hurt each other every day, drugs are the only way over the pain, no one cares about you, etc.

 

Some people do use their version of the "truth" to try to justify their actions or as an excuse. There are very few absolute truths that apply to everyone.

 

Politically correct seems to have taken on the meaning of saying "nice" words so no one gets their feelings hurt, even if you don't believe what you say. So much of what I see the schools doing in the name of "politically correct" stems from ignorance. No one says you can't talk about Christianity in school, but you can't force a non-Christian child to say a Christian prayer (and this does still happen in some places). The non-Christian child should be able to stand up and say "here is what my family believes" without fear of harm or ridicule. The same way the Christian child should be able to get up and say why Jesus is important. So many school staff don't understand what is really being said or how to handle it, so they just come up with a way to avoid it. Then everyone loses.

 

If I don't want my child to believe in something the majority of the community believes is right, then it is up to ME to tell him what he will hear and why I don't agree. I think we all run into this at some time or another. This happens concerning TV shows, popular toys, dating, etc. It is also my responsibility to teach my child to respect other people and their beliefs (within reason). I do not have the right to tell the child of an Atheist that his parents are wrong, the same as those parents should not be telling my child such. If I want to discuss the validity of their belief or lack thereof, I should discuss it with the adults. I teach my son to realize not everyone worships the same way, and that's okay.

 

Okay, I'll step down off my soapbox now.

 

 

[slontwovvy]

Okay, I think it's time someone else enters the fray...so here goes...

 

PC, in my opinion, is attempting to get through life without offending anyone. It is seeking to get through life without taking a strong attempt to change anything, to go along with the crowd and avoid conflict.

 

It may have been started with a good thought, but that thought was flawed. Our world needs disagreement, conflict. Without people attempting to disagree and to change society, without people rising above the PC-ness, or the lock-step cadence it has become in today's day and age, nothing will get done.

 

By all means, we should not use racial slurs, just as evmori said. But that, as he also adds, came from a common courtesy, a respect, not from PC. It is sad that in today's day and age, too few people are willing to stand up and go against the crowd, to speak out against the anonymous mob that PC has become.

 

To continue a new tradition, I'll step down off my soapbox now.

[andrews]

We should be careful to differentiate between the Truth, and what we perceive as true. The latter changes all the time, while the former is unchanging. Without a firm belief in the firm foundation of the Truth, you have no foundation on which to build, for everything is relative and therefore shaky.

 

Brad