Adults Smoking at Scout Events

[scoutldr]

I am known to quaff the occasional brew. Probably no more than a case a year, were I to keep track. So, following the impeccable logic of the smokers, I will feel free to sneak off into the woods for a cold one.

 

- it doesn't affect anyone else, as long as I'm not legally inebriated

- you can see people drinking in public places all the time, so it can't be a bad role model

- if scouts start drinking because they see me drink, it's the result of poor parenting

- it's not illegal, since I'm over 21

- and unlike most smokers, I will deposit my trash in a proper recepticle (it's even RECYCLABLE!), and will channel the effluent from my body so that others don't inhale it

- and, regardless of what the G2SS says, it's not logical, so they probably really don't mean it that way

[packsaddle]

I just re-read our commander's memo. The thought occurred to me that maybe BSA uses vague, mealy-mouthed, or ambiguous language IN ORDER TO AVOID appearing military.

But then I thought, you know, if tobacco users were simply more considerate of other people, this thread with its 4 pages and counting - and all those memos from colonels and generals about bad breath and gingivitis would not be necessary. Some thoughtless guy wouldn't just walk up to the trash can at my desk and unload a cheekful of gore into it. Smokers would be like Eamonn - they would think before fouling the air for everyone. And wording would not be necessary in the first place.

[GeBlack]

I apologize for being so relentlesss in my discussion of this issue. The primary purpose of my posts is to encourage that the policy be solidified. I present it here becuse this forum is frequented by those who are within the network to relay my feedback.

 

I neither want condolence of my actions or condemnation of other's actions, although I do appreciate those who are able to see the situation as it was presented. This is not an argument to be won/lost. It was an illustration of the shortcomings of the current policy statement and the problems which can occur because of a lack of a clear policy.

 

Out of the five parents who accompanied our group to the event, none of them were aware of any prohibition. Although most would understand a prohibition if it was stated.

 

Three out of the five parents smoke and were also smoking during the day, but not at the particular time I was confronted. This doesn't make it 'right' but it does illustrate the lack of disseminated information on an issue which has been stated as being the BSA policy for the last five years.

 

Being located near a military base, all the parents were either spouses of military members, prior military members, or active military members who are well acquainted with accepted rules for behavior. All are respectable people who should not be subject to disrespectful treatment due to the inability of BSA to clearly state their position. All love their children and want the best for their children.

[Fat Old Guy]

Ed,

 

You must have taken a different set of English classes than I did in the fourth grade.

 

may (m) verb, auxiliary

1. To be allowed or permitted to: May I take a swim? Yes, you may.

 

To say "you may not smoke in my home" doesn't leave the door open for the possibility of smoking, it is simply a more polite way of saying "smoking is prohibited in my home."

 

To say "you cannot smoke in my home" means that you are denied the ability to smoke because I have an automatic fire suppression system that will flood the room with Halon.

 

[evmori]

Fat Old Guy,

"may not allow" not just "may not" . Difference!

 

Ed Mori

[GeBlack]

scoutldr, thank you for your addition to the conversation.

 

1. Alcohol is not allowed in state parks

 

2. Alcohol consumption is not common in public places (unless you frequent different places than I)

 

3. You characterization of 'smokers' as litterbugs surely exemplifies your superiority

 

4. You are a scout leader so you not only are already aware of the G2SS, you have already bought in to it's directions by continued registration as a scout leader. If I'm not mistaken the wording is quite clear on this topic and I have seen no literature put out by a scouting entity which says that Use of Alcohol is discouraged during the event.

 

5. As a matter of fact we encountered a scout leader who appeared to have taken a few quaffs on the day of the event, I am not a zealot so while it was something which I felt was not 'ideal' I saw no reason to turn him in, if I felt strongly enough about it I would have approached him in a personal 1-1 manner and not called him out in front of everyone. I am not bound by your standards, this was my choice and the choice of the other parents present. Apparently the current effort is towards keeping parents from smoking in front of children, not in keeping leaders sober during events.

 

6. Interesting that you should use this as your example because I personally feel that alcohol abuse is much more of a problem than tobacco use, although it doesn't get half the press, maybe next crusade. I have witnessed this first hand working in an Alchohol Rehabilitation Center for five years. I'm sure that there are those who think that your very use of alcohol should precipitate your removal, after all should we actually trust our children to someone who advocates the use of mind altering substances.

 

 

As we say in the computer world - garbage in, garbage out

[dan]

GEBlack

You stood in line for 40 minutes, you poor thing!

How long was the leader out there? He is trying run an event, probably was there the day before or more setting up, so he told you to put out your cig, you made a big deal out of it and he blew up at you! So what! Support the volunteers or become one! It was proably good for your son to see smoking as a bad thing!

 

[GeBlack]

dan,

 

You are misinterpreting, but it is apparent that you want to see it that way so I won't try to change your opinion.

 

My 7 y/o son has already progressed beyond the good/bad right/wrong stage. He is already aware that there are multiple viewpoints that are not his own, this does not make those viewpoints wrong. I will continue to foster those ideas as he grows up regardless of the poor examples he may see.

[Fat Old Guy]

"may not allow" not just "may not"

 

That phrase means that you are not permitted to permit some one to smoke, in other words, smoking is not permitted or smoking is prohibited.

 

 

[GeBlack]

OK, given the G2SS states that you "may not allow" and that this means prohibited.

 

What does it mean when a regional scouting organization states:

 

"We encourage leaders to take one additional step in setting a good example for the youth of our council. Please give serious consideration on taking a weekend break from the use of all tobacco products. Young minds are impressionable and the Scouting youth frequently look to their leaders as role models."

 

(http://ads.omaha.com/sites/boyscouts/jubilee_general.zip, page six)

 

Does this also say prohibit? If not, how do you reconcile the two statements.

[Bob White]

Keep in mind you are asking for our personal interprtation of what someone of unknown authority wrote for a local event.

 

My guess is that they do not wantyou using tobacco at all even outside of the activity area outsid ehte view of the scouts. That could be fo any number of reasons such as fire or litter control.

 

No matter what their intention what they write does not supercede the Youth Protection Policies of the BSA. So even if they were to say that smoking was permitted it would still have to be in a designated area out of view of the scouts.

 

What I don't understand is why your unit leader for the event did not contact the event chair and ask for clarification? Communication is after all a two-way street. A simple call might have cleared all this up.

 

Bob White

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, I don't know how many prisons you frequent, hopefully few to none, but if you ever get a chance to "visit" (as in not assigned there) you may notice a white or yellow stripe on the floor in front of the cashiers window, inmates store, etc.

 

I asked what the line was for, the answer, inmates are to keep their toes behind the line, necessitating them to lean awkwardly forward to conduct business at the window. This is supposed to reduce the number of inmates who try "funny business".

 

Well, whether the inmate is told he/she may not have toes on or beyond the line, or that having toes on or beyond the line is prohibited, the results are the same.

 

Anyone with toes on the line or beyond gets to spend the night in "the box" (OK, the last line I made up, but I loved Strother Martin)

 

 

[evmori]

OGE,

I have never been in a prison for any reason, but thanks for the info.

 

"may not allow" leaves the door open for "may allow". I know it doesn't say that in the G2SS but that's my interpretation. I know, Bob, my interpretation is wrong by your standard.

 

Ed Mori

[GeBlack]

You chose to use a prison story to parallel the situation which occurred to a paying guest at a scouting event? I guess I'm beginning to see the point of reference which I am up against.

 

My old drill instructor used to call it the my way or the highway mentality, of course he was absolutely in charge so that worked for him.

 

Bob, before the event I was not even aware of the G2SS. I could not have noticed the discrepancy if I was not aware that there were two opposing statements. So I couldn't have asked my unit leader for clarification of a statement which in my eyes was very clear. What is amazing is that this literature was posted well before the event. Why didn't someone correct it out of the 16,000 people who attended the event?

[scoutldr]

To clarify my remarks, I consider most restaurants that serve alcohol to be "public places" to which children are routinely admitted. Moderate amounts of alcohol are considered safe, and indeed some studies think it to be preventive of some disease processes. No amount of tobacco is "safe".

 

And yes, smokers are litterbugs. Next time you are stopped at a red light, just look on the ground. Even our camp is littered with butts after parents' night from those who think nothing of tossing them on the ground. If you are the one exception who actually uses an ash tray, I applaud you. During our annual "Clean the Bay Day", in which the Troop of which I serve participates, statistics are kept. Annually, the number one item collected is "cigarette butts", even from the remotest, pristine beaches. And with only a small percentage of the population smoking, they still manage to make a big impression on those of us who have to clean up after their filthy habit. I would like to see a 10 cent deposit placed on each butt...my troop would be rich!

 

To be fair, my vitriol is fueled by the fact that I lost my Dad to inoperable lung cancer at age 69. It is not something that your children should be forced to watch. Now we are losing my mother in law (age 70) to emphysema, and cardiovascular disease. Everyone's lives are disrupted, while we care for her until the inevitable slow suffocation takes it's toll. Again, not a pretty sight to see this once vibrant, active GS leader struggle and gasp for air just to get to the bathroom, and be heartbroken because we had to tell her last night it is no longer safe for her to have the grandkids spend the night without another adult present.

 

No one has the right to affect others' lives like that because of a habit they refuse to stop (and don't tell me its' "too hard" -- you want hard, try holding your father's head in your arms while he cries from the pain and begs you to end his suffering).

 

You can't convince me otherwise. A Scout is not selfish.