Adults Smoking at Scout Events

[packsaddle]

evmori, I just did the online thing. While I understand what you're saying, it seems clear enough to me that BSA intends for adults to refrain from tobacco use or at least keep it out of sight and in the closet, so-to-speak. Are you just messing with Bob White, or do you really want to allow tobacco use?

[SR540Beaver]

Pack ole buddy,

 

I'm one of those that questions the wording on this smoking issue. I can see both sides of the coin. Just a nasty habit I have that tends to get me in trouble with everyone at some point. I can see where Bob gets his strict interpretation. On the other hand, I see where others have a problem with the words "may not" instead of "can not". I'm one of those people. My feeling is that this is such a big issue and seems to have so many people confused, that the BSA needs to address it and make it clear as day to even a person with an IQ of 40. If their intention is to prohibit smoking, they need to say so in clear and precise language. It would not be all that hard to say, "the BSA PROHIBITS the use of ANY tobacco products by ANY person at ANY event where scouts are present." Wording to that effect leaves little room for personal interpretation. One small change will make a world of difference. It makes one wonder why the BSA has never seen fit to change it? Could it be that what they actually meant by "may not allow" is that they leave it at the discretion of the local leadership? We'll never know until the BSA clears it up for those who question the language.

[evmori]

Bob,

No it doesn't. May not doesn't mean the same thing as prohibited.

 

packsaddle,

I think the wording in the G2SS leaves it up to each individual unit on how to handle this situation.

 

SR540Beaver,

Exactly!

 

Ed Mori

 

[GeBlack]

No, I am not trying to interpret to fit my personal desires. I'm simply pointing out that if this is an accepted long standing practice that the statement in the event paperwork makes no sense.

 

If smoking around BSA youth has always been prohibited (for at least 5 years), then why the statement encouraging leaders to refrain from smoking for the weekend?

 

I'm also saying that if the message is not being given effectivly then it makes it that much more wrong for righteous leaders to confront parents at an outdoor event.

 

And yes the military does prohibit smoking, and they state that rule very clearly with designation of appropriate places to smoke where applicable. They do not say sometimes we prohibit other times we discourage.

 

You know, when I was a kid scouting. I couldn't tell you if any of our leaders smoked or not. I do remember that some had nasty tempers though. It's amazing what is important to children.

[Eamonn]

While maybe the BSA needs to look at the wording of some of the policies.

I think and this is just my opinion that unless we had a strict "You Can" or "You Can Not" do whatever. There will always be those of us (And yes I have done it!!) Who will look for and find a loop hole.

Maybe I am out of line but I am at times a real busy body.

If I see someone riding in the back of a pickup truck at a Scout Camp. I will go out of my way to tell them not to do it.

If I see anyone smoking in front of Scouts I wiil ask them not to do it.

So far everyone has been real nice about this sort of thing. Why?

I think that they are aware that some things are just wrong.

On the other hand there are other things that I have learned to take plenty of "No Notice."

Much as I would love to see all the leaders in our district in full uniform. It isn't happening. So other then at Training's, I just let it go.

Yes there are times when as a smoker I feel that everyone is picking on me. But I only have to look at the side of the pack to see some of the harm that smoking can do.

I sure as heck do not want to be the role model to any boy who might think that smoking is cool just because I do smoke.

There has been the odd rare occasion when being a smoker has had its' advantages.

The other year at Philmont Conference Center, while everyone was rushing to do whatever.

I got to know some really neat people. We met about three times a day in the smoking area. I still keep in contact with a few and exchange cards at Christmas with two of them.

So it isn't all bad.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

Ed,

 

"may" means you are permitted to so something.

 

"may not" means that you are not permitted, which is much the same as prohibited.

 

 

 

[evmori]

Fat Old Guy,

"may not allow" and "prohibited" have two entirely different meanings. "Prohibited" means no. "May not allow" means you might not be allowed or you might be allowed.

 

Ed Mori

[Bob White]

No, "Might not allow" would mean you might not allow it. To tell a person "you may not use my telephone" does not mean they can if they want to.

 

Why if you understand the goal of the rule would you fight it because you do not like the phrasing. Why not follow the rule because you know it's purpose?

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SM406]

I remember very vividly when my mother said ...You MAY Not do that! I understood very well that I was prohibited from doing it.

 

SM406

 

[evmori]

I know I'm being picky but the way the reg is worded leaves it open for interpretation. If the BSA wanted to ban smoking all they had to do was state smoking is prohibited. They have done that for other things! Why not this?

 

Ed Mori

[GeBlack]

OK, let me try to bring this back to focus.

 

1. I was not aware of any 'rule' forbidding smoking in front of scouts.

 

2. The Mid-America Council event literature did not state any prohibition of smoking in fact the wording was 'discourages' and was directed at scout leaders.

 

3. As such I was not knowingly breaking a rule, if this is a well known policy then it was the Mid-America Council which was breaking the rule by reducing the prohibition to an advisory discouragement(Bob, take note since you are from the midwest)

 

4. I question the ethical impact of an adult smoking at a scout event, especially when they are not in a assigned leadership role, since this behavior can be seen anywhere.

 

5. I agree with the medical impact of second hand smoke, although I feel it is grossly overstated in comparison to other airborn particulates. I do take precautions to avoid sharing my habit with others.

 

6. The question is not one of good/bad or right/wrong it is of policy. If it is the policy of BSA to disallow smoking at scouting events then that message needs to be consistant and well stated. Not because people are looking for loopholes, simply for consistency in enforcement and so others are not attacked when attending a scouting event with their son.

 

As stated by others the BSA is a private organization and does have the right to establish their own standards. If I feel that those standards are too intolerant then I can either choose not to participate in their activities or I can work to have those policies changed. Given the frenetic political climate of this issue I doubt very seriously that any change could be made when the policy is solidified. But in order to prevent further individual attacks by zealous troop leaders I think it is important that an accepted consistent policy statement be made and globally applied.

 

[dan]

GEBlack

You where in a state park! Why in the blue blazes could you not walk away to have a smoke!

Seems to me you are trying to push an agenda, which is fine, until you bring the boys into it, which you did, when you tried to smoke in front of them!

 

You stated He would not allow smoking in his archery range. Notice the word you used here, HIS.

 

 

[SM406]

GeBlack,

 

In as much as I believe all adults (leaders or not) should refrain from smoking (drinking, and chasing women also) at Scout events, I also believe you should have been treated with more respect from the Scouter that brought this issue to your attention. To be so discourteous to you is also not setting the proper example for the Scouts (much less to you). Scouts learn a lot about the Scout Law and Oath not only from what they are taught but also from the visual cues sent by all the adults around them. Sometimes, Dads that are not Scouters, that attend Scout events with their sons have bigger impacts on other Scouts than the leaders do. This could be from the notion that as leaders the Scouts know us and come to expect a certain example (comes with the uniform) and the Scouts are looking for re-inforcment of the Oath and Law from non-Scouters. After all we are trying to teach a way of life to these young lads. I am sorry that you had to experience this behavior from a Scouter that should have known better.

 

SM406

 

[SR540Beaver]

Bob,

 

I understand how YOU understand the policy and how it is crystal clear and black and white for You. I'll concede that to you. In fact, I myself have no problem with the BSA prohibiting smoking in front of the scouts. Can you not understand and concede that other people find the wording confusing? Given that this seems to be a reoccuring question, would you not agree that it would be a good idea for the BSA to revisit their wording and precisely and concisely spell out their intention in language that people could not find a loophole in? A simple change of "may not allow" to the word of "prohibit" leaves no wiggle room for people looking for a loophole or for those of us who simply find the current wording lacking. One simple change clears the whole thing up. Like I said earlier, the fact that it does raise so many questions and the BSA has chosen to ignore clearing it up tends to make me think that they might be vague on purpose. Until the BSA changes the wording, it appears that smoking at local events will continue to be at the local leadership's discretion.

[GeBlack]

No I was not trying to push an agenda, I had been waiting in line for over 40 minutes so my son could participate in the event. I saw no need to excuse myself to a remote location since there had been no statement of prohibition. I stated 'His' to show the overbearing way in which he presented himself, not to imply his ultimate authority for the area.

 

You apparently have not read anything that I have written. Nor are you able to recognize that the information being given to parents concerning the use of tobacco is either non-existant or misleading.

 

You act as if it is a generally known crime to smoke in front of children, it is not. Nor do I believe it should be considered as such. It is part of the world in which we live and until legislated away it is still recognized as completely permissible.

 

I am not a scout leader and am not privy to the dogma of internal workings of the BSA. My only interface to the wishes of the organization are in the literature which is disseminated or vocal communication. I was not given any prior understanding of the BSA's position on smoking other than the event literature and I will not tolerate high-handed attacks by self-important leaders who think that their authority extends beyond positions which have been stated by their superiors.

 

I have dedicated a good portion of my life to preserving the freedoms you enjoy and will not bow to the will of individuals who attempt to take those freedoms away.

 

While you may feel personally that it is 'wrong' to smoke in front of children unless it is backed up by a stated policy, one which is clear and precise, it is only your personal opinion. I believe that body piercing is objectionable and do not want my children exposed to that practice, but I realize it is well within the rights of individuals to have that done, and to display it in public. So instead of attempting to hide the practice from my children, I let them know what my feelings are.

 

I am sick of well meaning and not so well meaning people saying that they are 'doing it for the children' when it is clear they are just beating people over the head with an argument which is impossible to combat. You automatically fall in the category of not caring for children if you attempt to contradict them. The truth of the matter is that children are much more resilient than people believe and sticking their head in the sand does not protect them from ultimately having to deal with the world, it only delays the process and makes them much less prepared when they do confront it.