When to advance?

[Chippewa29]

A bit of advice is needed. My troop currently has a Scout that is 12 1/2 and just finished his second class and on his way to first class. He's a nice kid, but during meetings, if the subject isn't something he wants to do or something else catches his eye (like the toys in the corner as we meet in a church basement that doubles as a nursery school), he just wanders off and then expects to have his book signed like he was there with everyone else. I've felt that I shouldn't sign his book unless he can prove he knows the subject taught (the rest of the Scouts get their books signed by participating and showing their knowledge during the class). His maturity level is literally that of a 7 or 8 year-old but he is literally a genius. He has no problem learning the Scout skills and finishing the requirements (he is at 90% of troop events). Like I mentioned, he's not a bad kid but he wants everything to revolve around his needs (fortunately, the other Scouts tolerate him and ignore him when he acts up) and doesn't understand why everyone doesn't think like he does. I've tried discussing this with his parents over the past year and a half on several occasions. Of course, the parents say they argree with me, but the next week, he is wandering off and not doing what he is supposed to do (we've given him a special attention at times so the other Scouts don't get have their experience disrupted). Recently, we handed out some troop positions for the first time (QM, Scribe, etc). I announced them for two weeks and explained what the jobs entailed. We (the SPL and myself) then asked for the Scouts interested to submit their names. Our "trouble" Scout didn't apply for any of the positions. After we sat down and selected the Scouts for the positions, we swore them in and presented them with the office badges. Of course our "trouble" Scout came up to me (with his Dad right behind him) and asked why he didn't get a new patch for his uniform (he loves to brag about what he has done and show off the different badges he has earned). I explained to him and his dad that for one, he didn't apply for one of the positions when they were announced. Second, I didn't feel he had shown enough responsibility to handle a leadership position (he never does his share of the work, always leaves his things all over the place, is not a team player, etc.) I told him that we could reevaluate in a few months if he showed me that he could be responsible (I specifically said he had to not wander off and not lose things or expect his parents to keep track of his things at meetings or campouts). The next week, he was back to his same routine.

 

This Scout will easily be able to do the requirements for First Class, so I don't feel that I can hold him back because he is immature and wanders off (he doesn't interrupt other Scouts when he does it). However, for Star, he will need a leadership position and I don't feel that he should be getting a leadership position (and thus advancing) if he is not growing and learning and willing to change. Am I correct in holding him back like this (or will I be?) Or should I give him a leadership position and hope it will help him change?

 

Very long, but I hope you get what I mean.

[OldGreyEagle]

Chippewa,

 

While diagnosing long distance is dangerous for a physcian, and even more so for a non-physian, what you have described is as classic a case of Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) as I have ever heard described. This may be your first exposure to this condition, or at least the most severe case.

In ADD the biblical quote "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" is ever so appropriate. The scout may have every intention of doing "good" while you speak to him. But 5 minutes later the bug crawling across the floor has far to much appeal then standing in line and listening to announcements. Having personal gear strewn around is another indicator of ADD as well as lack of maturity. Its really not his fault anymore than poor vision is for a scout who needs to wear glasses. You mentioned you spoke to his parents, and they agree with you about his behavior, I am sure they do.... as well as I am sure they hear the same thing from every organized activity the boy does.

Can you ask the parents if the boy has been tested for ADD? Is he on medication? I know generally Ritalin has been been vilified for over use, and it probably is, but in some cases, it is needed, actually required for normal behavior. If the parents deny the boys behavior, look at the father, while ADD isnt genetic per se, it does tend to run in families and males are more likley to have it than females. And many parents will deny there is any problem, just that the boy is energetic

 

OK, so much for my diagnosis... We have has some real challenges in our troop. One boy literally would dance barefoot in a fire in the winter. The Scoutmasters used to take 4 hour shifts watching him so he wouldnt hurt himself or others. He would never intend to hurt another, but at times his impulsivity would get the best of him. He is now a 20 year old ASM. He got his Eagle just as he turned 18, and no scout, even one who gets Eagle at 13 ever worked harder. When I joined the troop the boy was 14 and I wanted to know why we kept the boy, the committee chair asked me where else could he go? She was right, ADD kids are high risk for falling into the "wrong crowd" becasue adults will shun them and tell them they are no good, dont behave well, etc until the kids beleive they are rotten and go off to prove it.

 

Whether the parents help or not, you can do many things. Scouting magazine had a few articles on scouts with ADD, try to get them. You said the boy was literally a genuis, this is not surprising with ADD. These kids are very distractable, unless its something that interests them, then they can concentrate for hours. If he loves scouting, and he must, he attends 90% of the activities and he learns scouting skills easliy, can you use him to demonstrate skills? Teach him the skills first and have him show the troop. It lets him learn stuff first, which he will love and he then demonstrates it to the others. Sounds like an Instructor position would be the fit. Then again, he would have to have guidance when presenting, he couldnt do it alone. He will take more time than a "normal" boy, but ADD kids do mature, they just take a whole heck lot longer than others.

 

When do you advance him? When he accomplishes the requirements. You said he doesnt do his share of the work. Encourage the other scouts to peer pressure him,they are far more effective than any adult. But by no means give up on him.

 

And by the way, why do I know this? I have to admit I am an ADD adult, I bounced from job to job until I became a consultant (insert your best consultant crack here)The constant change of scenery eases my distractability. Also my 16 year old son is ADD, dyslexic and SPL and we are planning his Eagle court of honor. It takes a lot work with ADD kids, but the rewards are sweeter as well, good luck

[andrews]

I have a son who is very much like that. With probably a little too much "motivation" from dad (me), he got his First Class last July at a bit over 11, and is close to Star now (though I am trying to back off).

 

He has channelled a lot of the energy, but it remains there. I figure he will probably stay Star for quite a while, and maybe First Class if he doesn't finish another Eagle-required badge. This may be a good thing for him. His maturity needs to catch up, at least a bit, with his rank.

 

His older brother gives me hope though. About a year and a half ago, when he was a bit younger than my youngest son, he also lacked focus and many "life skills." While he was not as easily distracted, they both have been diagnosed with ADHD in the past. He still has a lot to work on, especially since he is becoming a teen in April (and what boy that age doesn't?), but he has matured a great deal and I figure if I give my other son a year or two, he will "catch up" as well.

 

My point is to agree with the other post that these things can work themselves out in time. I would not sign him off for anything he doesn't really know or do. And if he doesn't sign up for a leadership position, that should be the reasoning given for why he doesn't get one. Perhaps that will limit him until he is mature enough to control some of those urges. If not, then you could talk with him about his maturity level. Not need to focus on it now, since he has to meet the first requirement. I have gotten in trouble many times by talking beyond where I needed to talk.

 

Another thought would be to get him involved with some task that makes him responsible for something important. It might help him focus himself better, or at least see if that is possible now.

 

Brad

[Chippewa29]

Thanks for the input. Yes, he has been diagnosed with ADD. He was on a ton of meds for years and his parents had him taken off of them last June, as they weren't helping him at all and were stunting his growth (the kid is 12 1/2 and only 4'2" and 60lbs.) They now have him on vitamin supplements and he has improved a little bit. He also has been diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. Yes, he is quite a handful. I've spoken with his parents on several occasions on trying to find a game plan to help him become more accountable. Every time, they agree and maybe he is a little better the following week, but then the next week he is back to his old antics and his dad is laughing about it, thinking its cute when he does these things (it is something that is cute when a four year old does it, but almost embarrassing when a twelve year old does it). The Scout doesn't do anything really bad, but he is very self-centered and wants everything to revolved around him. I've spent a tremendous amount of time working with him to keep him from distracting the other Scouts. Peer pressure has no effect on him. The other Scouts are very good with him (considering how much they have to work around him) and try to include him in on everything (we even have a couple of older Scouts who have taken time out of working on their merit badges/Eagle projects at meetings to work with him and try to include him in on troop activities when he wanders off), but he is incredibly thick-skinned and doesn't care what other people think of him (his parents have said he is the same way in school). The parents are very inconsistent with how they deal with him and don't follow through with their plans (they communicate them to me). They tend to resort to bribes and "Oh, its just how he is" when he acts up instead of using any form of discipline.

 

I'd like to help the kid, but I feel its getting to the point where I'm having to neglect the other Scouts to take care of this one Scout. As we are expecting to double to size of our troop in the next six months (from committments we've received from Webelos dens), I could see this becoming a big problem.

[Mike Long]

This sounds like a kid who really needs the attention and help but the problem is that it sounds as if the parents are working at odds to you.

 

It is very difficult to help a child when you only get an hour or two a week and the rest of the week the parents subvert the agreed upon plan.

 

Are the parents active in troop meetings and activities or are they just "droppers?" If they are not then I think it is necessary for them get active to help manage the boy. If they are...

 

You have talked to the parents, you have gotten the parents active you have developed a action plan with the parents, you have explained to the boy and parents what he needs to do to improve and have given him attention, patience and time. It sounds as if you are doing everything right on your end. Remember, you are only a scout leader not a doctor or a behavioural psychologist. If the boy needs that level of help then it is up to the parents to get it for him and not to expect a part-time scout volunteer to provide it.

 

BUT

 

As for advancing you can't hold a child back especially if the child has a bona fide medical condition. He can't be thought of in the same vien as a fully capable boy who is merely lazy. The BSA make allowances for this and allows scoutmasters to substitute or modify requirements.

 

Look at Star:

 

While a First Class Scout, serve actively for four months in one or more of the following troop positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop)

 

See that last sentence? That right there is your way to accomodate that boy. When he is ready, assign him a leadership project and let him run.

[sctmom]

My son is ADHD, but better when taking a medicine called Adderall. He is 10, 5th grade, will be crossing over next spring to a troop. I struggle constantly with the immaturity.

 

When you say he is "thick skinned", this is common with ADD. They don't pick up on the social clues. They do try hard, but that effort often goes away quickly. The parents may be just worn out from trying to deal with this. Remember this happens 24 hours a day for them, including school - which is not as accomodating as Scouting.

 

The father may be laughing it off because he doesn't know what to do or he may be ADD himself and not know it.

Yes, People with ADD often are close to genius level.

 

One suggestion to keep the wandering down is to let the boy have something in his hands to fiddle with quietly. Please do not give up on him. Try to get his parents involved. Talk to the troop committee and assistant scoutmasters to see if someone will take him under their wing. The consistency is VERY important to a boy like this. Try to sit him with his back to the toy area. Don't just give him credit if it is not earned. He needs to the structure and the goals. My son has done best with teachers that calmly and quickly state the goals, always using the same wording each time. You will have to tell him things over and over and over and over. Be to the point in giving directions. Usually these kids love anything "hands on".

 

Please do not give up on him. If he's attending every week, he really wants to be there. You may want to check out some books about ADD behavior. Look at the techniques used for kids under 10 and those over 10 (their are different approaches based on age). One good book is written by a guy named Russell Barkley. I think a new edition just came out, I can't remember the name. Ask the parents if they have any books or guidelines about dealing with his behavior. School counselors may also be able to help you. And as someone else mentioned there are some great articles on the web and in magazines.

 

Please do not give up on him. If he's attending every week, he really wants to be there.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Sctmom

 

Thank you for elegantly stating what I was trying to explain. Your suggestions are dead on, you are one well informed ADD/ADHD parent.

 

Chippewa,

 

Working with this scout may be an ordeal, but it looks like Scouts may be the thing that will very much help him if handled correctly. In our troop we have a boy who is either in a wheel chair or a walker. But scouting is for all boys. He doesnt come on a lot of hikes, but if the terrain is right, he does come and with a long length of rope the kids pull him along. He has a hard time speaking and does not have fine motor coordinaiton in his hands. While he is eager, his manual skills arent there. It takes a lot to work with him. Nobody begrudges the effort because its evident Carl needs the help. Then again it helps that his father, as dedicated a man as I have ever known, is always by his side.

 

Your scout needs the same help. Its harder because you cant look at him and see the problems, but they are there sure as a Carl's issues are as soon as you hear him talk.

 

If the disruptions are major enough, will the parents become involved in the troop? If the behavior is truly bad enough, you may have to request a parent accompany him on any activity, but this would be a last resort. Looks like they may be more of a hinderance than help.

 

Keep changing strategies until you find one that works.

 

Remember, the good Lord never send you a challeneg you cant overcome

[scoutmom]

As the Mother of another Webelos Scout with ADHD, let me offer a differing opinion. I was my son's Den Leader for 2 years and he drove me crazy at every meeting. Other kids would have some of the same behavours (den of 14 - 4 with adhd) and I could ignore them, but when it was my son, i went nuts.

 

Do the parents hold positions in your troop? If not, perhaps it would be better for him if the parents didn't hang around the troop/patrol meetings. I only say this because I have moved from Den Leader to Assistant Cubmaster and my son is doing better in his Den Meetings without me around! Bad for my ego, but great for his! Is there an Assistant Scoutmaster or an older Scout that could act as his "Buddy" and try to keep him on course during the meetings? This method has worked for my son.

 

As stated before, please don't give up on this boy. Many people don't realize how difficult is can be to work with children with adhd. Many people don't even recognize it as a valid diagnosis. This is a real issue for these children and they (and their parents) need all the supportive help they can get. Perhaps you can speak with a physician or psychologist who has some experience with Attention Disorders and get some advice or insight. There are many books available that offer stratigies for correcting these types of behaviours. I'm sure your local library has many. Check it out, you will not only benefit this particular boy, but every child you deal with in the future.

 

Good Luck and thanks for your concern. I hope my son will have a Scoutmaster who is as willing to help him as you semm to be to help your Scouts.

[Chippewa29]

Thank you all for your help (and mainly support) on this. We had a troop activity yesterday (wall climbing followed by hiking at a nature center) and this Scout was fortunately on one of his good days, although his dad did have to reign him on about every 15-20 minutes (rather than every 3-5 minutes on a bad day) so he didn't get in the way of the other climbers.

 

Mike Long- I think you are correct that he may need to have to be given a SM approved leadership project rather than a leadership position. I'm hoping that he shows enough responsibility so that in a few months, he can hold a position such as troop librarian or historian (something he could be very good at if he were responsible enough). I'm guessing that you agree with me in that I shouldn't just advance him if he is not growing and learning (this won't be an issue for a few months until he gets his first class, so I'll probably have to sit down with his parents ahead of time to let them know of my intentions).

 

sctmom- I like your suggestion about very specific goals. I've sat down with him and his parents on a couple of occasions to help him get a plan to move forward, but I'll probably need to do this more often and be more specific.

 

Old Grey Eagle- dealing with Scouts with disabilities is one of the great challenges/rewards of being an adult leader in Scouting. I knew several Scouts with physical disabilities while growing up (no arms, in wheelchair, etc.) and I had a tremendous amount of respect for them, but most importantly, I realized they were just normal guys like me who had a lot of the same dreams and goals. The big difference between them and my current Scout is that they were working very hard to not have to get special attention and made a concerted effort to make sure they "carried their weight" by doing a large amount of the work they were physically capable of to make up for the work they couldn't do. This Scout doesn't understand why he has to do any work when he doesn't like to do it.

 

Scoutmom- I love the idea of the Scout buddy, and we have done that on a couple of occasions. Before last March (when I became SM), I was often his buddy and worked with him when he wouldn't do what we were doing. There have been a couple of times the past six months where we've had a 17 year old Scout whose taken him aside and worked one on one with him to keep the meeting going. Unfortnately, that older Scout is only there half the time. I have no ASM (previous SM and ASM both have had their work situations change since spring and are no longer active in the troop on a regular basis) and none of the parents, although they are very good in committee support roles (including this Scout's parents), none of them want to make the committment to having duties on a "regular" basis. I'm only 29 and was one of the original members of the troop (the only one left), so all troop alumni are currently in college or just starting careers (and families) and haven't been active in Scouting for years (one of my former troopmates is actively involved with youth through the school he works at). I'm hoping to recruit a couple of ASM when we get new Scouts over the winter/spring.

 

As for giving up on him, I have no intention of doing so. Two years ago, when we were recruiting this Scout's Webelos den to join the troop, they came and visited (our troop had three Scouts at the time) and this Scout was himself (I remember thinking that I wanted that den to join but I was hoping he would go somewhere else). A week after the visit, the Scouts mom called me and we had the first of several long conversations about the Scout (she let me know of his difficulties) and said she and her husband were very impressed by what they saw at our troop (small but high quality kids) and the amount of individual attention he could get. He was the only Scout we got from his den (the rest of his den went elsewhere when they heard he was coming with us). Our SM at the time said he was my problem (as I had recruited him) and wasn't the most patient with him, but my feeling is that this Scout was the one the really needed Scouting.

 

My big fear now is that when we get new Scouts crossing over in February/March (we expect 10-12 to go along with our current eight Scouts) is two-fold: first, that if we get another Scout with similar problems, I will have to be a personal counselor for just a couple of Scouts and we will lose other Scouts because they seem lost in the system. The second is that right now, our current Scouts have been very good in dealing with our "special" Scout (they do their best to include him in troop activities and ignore him when he acts up). Once we get another bunch of Scouts in the troop, we need to start training them and working with them (by spring, I'll have one 15 year old, five 12/13 year olds, and one 11/12 year old, so we are very young). My troop is at a critical stage right now, as we have been purposely growing slowly the past two years and are about a year away from having a good solid core of youth leaders that are actually capable of leading activities with mimimal adult intervention. I'm afraid that if my time is stretched too much, we're going to go off the tracks and have to start rebuilding again. We've got a chance to become an outstanding troop and things are falling into place, but we are still pouring the foundation and don't want to building to collapse.

[andrews]

14 boys in one Webelos den? That is way too big!

 

I started my adult scouting career because my son's Bear den had about 12, and it was pandemonium.

 

Brad

[OldGreyEagle]

You are right, the disabled scouts you talk about tried hard to add more to the group with what they could do because they realized they might not be able to do it all.

 

This scout doesnt see any difference between his abilities and behaviors from any of the other scouts.

Part of your scouts problem is that he sees no problem.

This is what is most frustrating, in every sense of the phrase "he doesnt get it". The challenge is to work with him long enough for him to "get it".

[sctmom]

A serious problem with many people with ADD is they "don't get it". They don't pick up on social clues or even when it is spelled out to them. I know my son doesn't realize he is different than other kids, even when I point out to him that it is NOT a good difference.

 

Sounds like you do need some help. Can your district or council help in anyway? Do they have someone who could assist? What about your charter organization? It sounds like you have your hands full just being Scoutmaster and this boy needs more of your time than you can give him. Not saying this is your fault, but you do need some help. Also, ask the parents if there is another relative that would be willing to help him at scout meetings. Sometimes a kid like this will respond better if an uncle, grandparent or older cousin helps out. That also gives mom and dad a much needed break.

 

Ask everyone you know if they can help. It does sound like this boy needs a lot of attention. The other boys in the troop are only going to help for so long before getting tired of him also. And they are busy themselves.

 

Do be VERY specific with goals and instructions. Often these kids are very smart and will do things to out smart you. I've had my son argue that commercials didn't count towards his allotted 30 minutes of TV viewing..LOL. He will find loopholes you NEVER dreamed of! A few weeks ago we were practicing knot tying at a den meeting, I turn around to find my son has tied his own ankles together. I asked why he did that -- his answer "You didn't tell me NOT to".

 

And to repeat, do not just give him advancements he has not earned. He must be made to live up to the standards. One day he will be out there in the big wide world where he will have to compensate for his ADD. As you know, you will be doing him a serious disservice by just passing him ahead to get him out of the way.

 

Good luck. Keep asking for help.

 

[jmzimmerle]

Whoa Nellie!

 

ADD, ADHD, Off-In-Never-Never-Land. None of these "diagnosis'" really mean a thing. Until the early '90's, they weren't even an issue.

 

Truth is this - the boy is as normal as can be! He is FIRST a boy, and someone's son and as important a member of your Troop. He will advance when he is ready to and we as leaders have a responsibility to provide quality program to him and others like him.

 

Nationally only 4% of Scouts ever earn Eagle Scout - were the other 96% lesser Scouts? Of course not.

 

Maintain your course - you're doing a great job I'm sure!

 

 

John-Michael

A "Slightly-Off-The-Wall" Eagle Scout and Sea Scout Commodore

[OldGreyEagle]

The greatest part of being part of the greatest country in civilization is our ability to disagree and discuss issues.

 

JM

 

While I agree ADD and ADHD are terms of the nineties, They are both real physical conditions.

 

When I was in grade school back in the 50's/60's I had a few classmates who could not sit still, could not "stay on task" and would constantly talk. The teachers went crazy trying to change these kids. The teachers said they were behavior problems, they didnt apply themselves, wouldnt pay attention. I think they were ADD, but no one had a word for it.

 

ADD and ADHD have been around us for a very long time. Remember Einstein coulnt pass high school math? He was most likley ADD.

 

While I agree ADD/ADHD gets overdiagnosed, it is also a very real condition. As has been commented here, the program shouldnt change, but to expect an ADD child to stand quiet for any length of time is not realistic either

 

 

[Chippewa29]

The last couple of posts have been very interesting. The topic of ADD is one that will probably go on for years. I actually know a few adults that have been diagnosed with it in the 40's and 50's. One woman was diagnosed at age 50 and for years had thought she was a "flake" and not intelligent. She never accomplished much because she had a hard time with concentrating and felt that anything that took a lot of focus was "beyond her". Finally, she met someone who suggested she be tested. After she was diagnosed, her doctor told her that she had two choices. The first was that she could go on living her life like she always had (she didn't have a bad life, but had never done anything to distinguish herself) or she could learn to compensate for her condition and move on. She chose the latter, using techiniques someone taught her to build her concentration and keep on task. Unfortunately, I lost contact with her about five years ago, but at the time, she was about half way through getting her college degree (she had previously gotten her GED) and was more excited about life than ever before. She told me that no one would have blamed her if she hadn't moved on. However, she figured she could either use her condition as an excuse and not do anything with her life or she could work to compensate for her condition and do something great.

 

My feeling is that at some point, people with that condition, if they want to do something with their lives, have got to find a way to work around it, just as so many people who are in a wheelchair or have a learning disability have learned to compensate and overcome any challenges they come across.

 

I think that part of our jobs as adult leaders is to help those Scouts with special needs overcome them. Just how to do it is the big question.

 

At our last troop meeting, in an ongoing attempt to shift responsibility over from the parents to the Scouts, I wrote the information about our hike this Saturday on a white board. I told the parents to stay away and had the Scouts (whom I have been telling for weeks now to make sure they bring pencil and paper to each meeting) write down the information themselves and give it to their parents. It worked out well (the Scouts are very capable when expected to be).

 

However, the dad of our challenged Scout said "He'll never be able to get the right information" and went and wrote it down himself. I kindly suggested to him that he may want to have his son write the information down with him standing there (to make sure it got done) but not do it for him. The dad then said it wasn't worth the effort. My thought was that if this kid, who is 12 1/2, in seventh grade, and part of the gifted (as well as learning disabled) program at school can't be expected to sit down and write out a few lines of information for an activity in which he wants to participate, then when will he ever be expected to take on any responsibility for himself, let alone for the troop.

 

I won't give up the Scout at all, but the expectation levels of some of these parents are incredibly low. As I look back, I feel very fortunate to have had the parents and Scout leaders I did. The excuse of "they're too young" didn't apply to us growing up. When I joined the Scouts and returned home from my first campout, my mom showed me right to the washing machine and taught me how to use it correctly. From that point on, it was my responsibility to get my own clothes clean. When I expressed dissatisfaction with the wrinkles in my uniform, my mom showed me how to iron. My Scout leaders were the same way. They taught our troop (all 11 and 12 years old) how to cook, clean, and operate a camp. After the first couple of months teaching us, they sat back and let us do it. Their expectation levels for us were very high and we responded accordingly.

 

I think the big question is this: at what point in their lives is it appropriate for the Scouts to say "I am responsible for who I am"?