Everything's up to date In Kansas City .. they've gone about as far as they can go

[OldGreyEagle]

Pedophilia and alcholholism should never be accepted as the "norm" because these conditions effect unwilling members of society. I do not ever want to contemplate where falling down drunk is OK, because ..."the guy cant help it, its in his nature".

 

Nor would I want a society where children are preyed on by molestors, and have that considered Ok as well.

If its determined such people cant control themselves, then a sanitarium or prison sounds like a very good idea.

 

However, many homosexuals exist in society without any one knowing. They live their lives, and do nothing untoward to anybody else. I just cant accept that as soon as a person is found to be homosexual, all of a sudden he is wrong or confused and a bad person when his record to that point has been immaculate. Neither would I want to be on a team trying to decide exactly what qualifies as grotesque acts of lewdness.

[andrews]

Sure, many people hide disfunction, and have for years. That doesn't mean it must become publically acceptable.

 

While "hidden sin" does eventually come out, it is the "in your face" stuff today that bothers me the most. We are not taught mere acceptance of people anymore, but the requirement to accept and validate behavior. If this wall comes down, how soon until we start having "sensitivity training sessions" in the many adult (and boy) training programs?

 

As to women: It has been a big shift mentally for me, since when I was a scout (later 1970s) I don't recall ever seeing a woman in scouting. However I still remain convinced that a woman can never truly teach a boy how to be a man. The male influence in scouts was a major benefit for me as my father was not very active in my life at the time.

 

This is not to say women shouldn't be leaders in scouts, I am encouraging my wife to do all she can. And if no one else steps forward, training a boy in scout skills and values is the best that can come out of a bad situation. Of course any women involved should be treated fairly and equitably, regardless of what their role is.

 

Brad

[Rooster7]

OldGreyEagle,

 

I understand your concern...to a point. I am not advocating that a panel of sex experts be established to review the "bedroom resume" of each adult leader candidate. But, as one views the natural world, is it not obvious that homosexuality is wrong? Just from a pure biological standpoint, it makes no sense. Human beings can and have sought innumerous ways to gratify their sexual urges. The fact that so many are willing to debase themselves to gratify those urges does not make the behavior more acceptable. I don't believe we need a team of folks to determine that God intended sex to be an act between a man and a woman. This much should be plain to see by all.

 

Furthermore, I realize that we all have vices. Some more serious than others, but we all have something in our lives and/or character that we would be better off without. Yet, as "andrews" stated in a couple of his posts, the real damage is done when the behavior is legitimized. How many of us, once confronted with our vice, proclaim the vice to be a "good thing". Many, if not most, might claim they don't have the vice. Some admit it and seek change. But few, if any, try to convince others that the vice is to be accepted. If I was confronted to be a kleptomaniac (to use an example), I could respond in three basic ways:

 

1) I could deny it.

2) I could admit it, and denounce my behavior.

3) I could admit it, and celebrate my behavior.

 

It's this third option that causes me heartburn. I have no problem with the "recovering" alcoholic. I do have a problem with the alcoholic who says, "I have no problem. You have the problem." Likewise, if a leader is revealed as a homosexual, and he refuses to denounce the lifestyle, I would reject that response. It doesn't matter to me if he keeps his endorsement of the lifestyle to himself; he's still proclaiming the vice (his sin) to be acceptable.

 

[sctmom]

I have a friend who is homosexual. Would I trust him around my son? YES. He is not a pedophile, he is not a threat. Also most people who work with him have no idea about his personal life. He is disgusted by the gays on TV that flaunt around in parades dressed strange. Also, he did not "choose" this lifestyle. He would like to have the love of a family -- wife and kids, but he cannot and will not. He knows this hurts his parents who will never have grandchildren.

 

Not all gays agree with or behave like those you see in the spotlight. This is true for many groups.

 

You may believe "science" hasn't proven it is born in people, but talk to a few gays, really listen to them. Did they choose to be the target for physical abuse and verbal abuse? Did they choose to not have the "normal" lifestyle that our society places a high value on? Did they choose to do this to be outcast from their families? Sure, they may be some who "choose" to participate in certain activities thinking it is a substitute for love or because they have other emotional problems, but I think you will find that most are not that way. Most are not a threat to our children. There is no "gay agenda" to take over Scouting or our youth.

 

They no more choose to be gay, than we choose how tall or short we are.

 

If the behavior is truly dangerous to our children, then a person should not be a scout leader. I know you all will say it is dangerous to their morals. I think smoking is dangerous to our children, but I can't get smokers banned from being leaders. Or can I?

I believe that each scout unit should have the right to deal with the issue individually.

 

If the homosexual is running around camping explaining to the boys how great his sex life is, I want him removed. The same as I want the heterosexual removed that tells what he did with his wife the night before.

 

By the way, you guys may find this interesting. Read on another bulletin board that a mother pulled her girl out of Girl Scouts because they DON'T have the same policy as BSA.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, I think this discussion may have run its course. Just as I know you will never change your stance, you know I wont. You appear to see homosexuality as an affront to God and nature, I do not. I do not think it is like pedophilia, alchoholics, kleptomania or any other example that was given. I have known homosexuals who were/are fine citizens who are respected by the community. Most of the community are not aware that these people are gay and would lose their standing if they were outed.

 

I still wonder why people in Kansas City are so bent on changing scouts when so many more issues should be addressed

 

Anyway, thats all I have to say about gays and scouts

[andrews]

sctmom,

 

A note that "choosing something" doesn't meant he choice is easy or totally conscious.

 

Many of those drawn into such a lifestyle were influenced by an older boy/man to follow that path. Many things influence a boy's sexual identity, especially at the age they are in Boy Scouts.

 

Recent studies of children raised in homosexual households show that they do have a higher (even if slightly) likelihood of becoming homosexual themselves. This was suppressed for years, but now is coming out since homosexuality is much more acceptable today and the researchers don't feel the same need to hide the results.

 

There is hope for your friend if he truly wanted to change, though the path is very difficult.

 

Brad

[OldGreyEagle]

I hate when I keep talking when I said I would be still!!!

 

Sctmom,

 

We seem to have a lot in common. One thing of which is that we have homosexual friends and can talk from a reference not appreciated by others whose only contact is the broad charactors seen on TV or the flaming queens normally associated with the gay lifestyle.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I dont think we will convince many that its ok, not all gays will Proselytize youth to join them. Other than that, welcome to our forum

[andrews]

The problem is that in today's society if you open your arms to one, you get the other.

 

I really have no desire to dig into people's private lives either, but if I found out our Scoutmaster was having an affair either he or my boys would be leaving soon.

 

Brad

[Rooster7]

sctmom and OldGreyEagle,

 

I am glad we can disagree in the friendly and logical manner displayed on this board. I need to add one last thought (prompted by OldGreyEagle's last post). I do know and have gay friends too. One in particular is a very close friend. But even if this were not so, I can appreciate most people for what they are, even if I don't care for some of their actions, habits, or political beliefs. This is why in my last post I made a point to say, "We all have vices (or sins)". Even though I strongly disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, I am not pointing to them as if they were some sort of strange animal. From a human perspective, we can all claim to have personal and intimate knowledge of one another. No one can claim he is without sin. Having said that, I have no problem being friends with a homosexual. Still, I reserve the right to not approve of his behavior.

 

Do I believe all homosexuals are pedophiles? No. I realize that being gay doesn't necessarily mean you're a pedophile as well. Would I trust my son with a homosexual? No. Why? As OldGreyEagle stated, I view "homosexuality as an affront to God and nature". Furthermore, I believe once a person crosses a line in a particular area of sin (or vice if you prefer), he is more likely to travel further down that road. To use a specific example, I believe high school students using "pot" (sorry I grew up in the 60's and 70's) are more likely to progress to other drugs when they get older. Likewise, I believe the homosexual is more likely to experiment with other sexual deviations.

 

OldGreyEagle is right. As long as we (andrews, myself, and others) view homosexuality as an affront to God, and you (sctmom, OldGreyEagle, and others) do not, we will have to agree to disagree. This is the crux of the argument. Is homosexuality wrong? Is it a sin? If you believe the answer is yes, then understandably you do not want your child around someone who does not recognizes his vices as such (and perhaps for some other reasons as well). If you believe the answer is no, then there is no issue.