Local Option on Gay Membership in Massachusetts?

[eisely]

I picked up the following item this morning. Can anyone provide more information?

 

Boston-Area Scout Unit to Allow Gay Leaders -Report

BOSTON (Reuters) - One of the largest Boy Scout councils in Massachusetts has adopted a policy that will allow gay scoutmasters to be affiliated with some local troops as long as they do not discuss their sexual orientation, The Boston Globe reported on Wednesday.

 

Brock Bigsby, Scout executive for the council, told the newspaper the carefully worded ``don't ask, don't tell'' policy, quietly approved last month, is consistent with the National Boy Scouts Council's stance on homosexuality, since the doctrine would permit avowed gays to lead Scout troops as long as they did not discuss their sexual orientation.

 

The policy approved by the Massachusetts Minuteman Council -- an umbrella group for 330 Boy Scout troops and 18,000 Scouts in greater Boston -- bars the exclusion of anyone on the basis of race, religion or sexual orientation, the Globe reported.

 

``Discussions about sexual orientation do not have a place in Scouts,'' Bigsby told the Globe. ``The Scouts will not inquire into a person's sexual history and that person will not expose their sexual orientation one way or the other.''

 

Greg Shields, the spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, was attending the National Scout Jamboree in Virginia and could not immediately be reached for comment.

 

The Boy Scouts have argued that homosexuality violates the Scout oath to be ``morally straight'' and the Scout law to be ''clean.''

 

In June 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled in a 5-4 vote that the Boy Scouts may exclude gays, saying that a private group like the Scouts has the right to set its own moral code and espouse its own viewpoint.

 

Last month, the Massachusetts Minuteman Council and Scout leaders in several other major cities asked the national office to let individual scouting organizations make their own decisions about gay Scout leaders and members, according to the newspaper report. Bigsby told the Globe the petition was under review.

 

The Boy Scouts of America have more than 4.9 million youth members and about 1.2 million registered adult volunteers.

 

 

[jmcquillan]

Although it made Reuters, it doesn't seem to have made the local news, at least I haven't seen it. But I'm not at all surprised. If you remember "The Tide is Turning" thread I started some time ago, I'm guessing that the meeting spoken of in the original article is where it all started. And Boston Minuteman is the largest Council in the state. I'm not at all surprised. I had a feeling that this would happen. Once the larger and wealthier councils in the country start down this road, BSA national will have no other option but to jump on the wagon quickly, lest they be seen as bucking a national trend, and left in the dust. Although this is only one council at the moment, remember that the original article spoke of many of the largest councils in the country being at the subject meeting where the change of tide was addressed. More may follow soon. This one council seems to be taking a step that some may call bold, others may call foollish and unwarranted, and leading to full acceptance. Who knows? Only time will tell.

 

[Rooster7]

I disagree. National doesn't have to buckle in, nor do I feel they will. They've been standing on principle for years...If/When they do surrender to this kind of pressure, they'll no longer be the organization they claim to be. I, for one, would view this as a very sad day. I hope and pray it never happens.

[Bob Russell]

I think that it is too early to judge what is happening here. I have long ago learned not to react to what I read in the newspaper, because it is often reported wrong or incomplete. Once the policy itself is available for review, we can better judge what is happening. An interesting portion of the policy as reported is that scout leaders "will not expose their sexual orientation one way or the other." Excuse me, but would I have to take off my wedding ring, and would I now have to refer to my wife by some neutral term? Of greater concern to me is the statement that the Council will not discriminate because of religion. If this means that any religion is OK as long as you have one, that is no change from current policy. However, is the Council going its own way on atheist scouts? I believe that a duty to God is an absolute in Scouting, a most fundamental requirement. As I said earlier, newspaper accounts are often incomplete, and the religion issue is the one I will be more interested in.

[jmcquillan]

I would agree that it's too early to judge what may happen in this instance, especially in view of the medias propensity for mistakes. "It would be nice for the media to get the facts stright before they distort them." But, the meeting did happen. The policy suggestions were made by the large councils in attendance. The tide did seem to be turning.

 

And the most interesting part of this whole thing, is that the pressure, if it exists, and the movement, if it too, exists, are coming from within the organization. I can not recall another instance where pressure to change, or a movement by a council seemingly counter to the national policy in an attempt to address an issue or change it, has come from within the organization. Mostly, the pressure and criticism have come from outside. This move does not appear to be one to change policy in spite of a national policy, but it is something that does not in any way have the seal of approval from Texas...and that's news.

[eisely]

The announced policy in this Massachusetts council as I understand it is not too different from what the San Francisco Bay Area Council did about two years ago. This West Coast council adopted a "don't ask - don't tell" policy, and indicated that it would not automatically expel gays. I don't know how this has worked in practice.

 

By the way, has anybody seen the cover story in Newsweek about boy scouts? The article exceeded my expectations in that Newsweek did not appear to take sides on the issue of homosexuals in scouting. I fully expected a negative story.

[GregH]

CNN posted the AP story at http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/08/01/boyscouts.gay.ap/

This publicity just makes me sick that top leaders in scouting--namely council executives--are unable to lead by example of what it means to be morally straight. Being morally straight includes being honest with ourselves and those around us. National has made it clear that homosexual leadership is not acceptable and to have a council executive--namely Brock Bigsby of the Minutemen Council--counter this moral standard with a "no ask no tell" policy is a slap in the face to scouting ideals.

[Rooster7]

Greg H,

 

I agree with you whole heartily. Think about the implications of such a policy. In essence, they are say this:

 

We believe homosexuality is wrong. However, if you don't tell anyone, we're willing to look the other way. Feel free to take our children out in the woods and spend the night.

 

WHAT?! If I believe the behavior is wrong, I'm not going to let that individual lead my child. It's an insane policy. Obviously, the leaders in the Minutemen Council don't believe in National's policy and are trying to circumvent it. I hope National has a STRONG rebuke for the Minutemen Council and particularly for it's leaders.

 

[scamp]

Sorry, but I don't see that what the Minuteman Council has done is against National policy. The National policy is "avowed homosexuals" are excluded from membership. I interpret this to mean that no one is going to start quizzing youth and leaders about their sexual orientation at the beginning of each meeting or gathering. Homosexuality in Scouts only becomes an issue when the individual himself makes it publicly known that he is homosexual, by announcing it to someone else or a group, by being active in gay-lesbian rights groups and public about it, or by openly and publicly living with a homosexual partner. The "don't ask-don't tell" policy works well here. We could have homosexual boys or leaders in our troop right now for all I know, but I'm not going to go and interrogate anyone. Unless the individual himself chooses to make his sexual orientation known, for whatever reason, it is not up to me to judge anyone's fitness to be a member of this great organization!

[eisely]

Dear Scamp,

 

I don't think you mean to say that you will never judge fitness for membership. We do this all the time on those occasions when a youth is so disruptive or engages in dangerous behavior that we have to suspend or terminate his membership. What I think you mean to say, is that absent overt behavior or a "coming out" by a member who may be gay, you are not going to judge fitness for membership on the sexual orientation issue. That is my understanding of the national BSA policy and I think that is what you are agreeing to.

[scamp]

Yes, thank you for stating my position so clearly.

[Rooster7]

"Don't Ask-Don't tell". What's the point?!

 

I disagree. The behavior is wrong. It is irrelevant whether or not a Scout (or Scouter) keeps it a secret. The behavior is still immoral. An organization's membership standards should NOT be based on how easily it can determine the "status" of potential members. If this was so, BSA would not have any standards at all. Does BSA ask potential leaders and scouts if they peep into their neighbor's windows at night? Obviously, the answer is NO. BSA has a clear set of standards. "Not asking" does not make the behavior acceptable! Anyone claiming otherwise is being disingenuous.

 

"Don't ask-Don't tell" dances around the issue. If you don't like the policy (no homosexual leaders or Scouts) then say so, but don't try to tell me that the policy never really existed. Let's be men, not lawyers. Ultimately the lawyers from both sides will fight this out in court again. However, I refuse to debate this issue by parsing words. We all know full well what was meant by this policy. Those pretending otherwise are simply doing their best to circumvent truth.

 

[eisely]

Apparently this individual was applying for readmission in the Minuteman Council that has this new policy. It is not clear to me what is going on in this case, but it appears to me that the Minuteman Council is trying to have it both ways, and looking bad everywhere. Maybe someone who lives in the area (jmcquillan?) may be able to offer more information on this particular contretemps.

 

Homosexual Spurned in Attempt to Regain Admittance to Boy Scouts

By Michael Betsch

CNSNews.com Editorial Assistant

August 13, 2001

 

(CNSNews.com) - A former Hanover, New Hampshire Boy Scout leader, dismissed last year for announcing his homosexuality in a newspaper interview, thought he had found a way to get back into scouting after a troop in Boston adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for homosexuals. He was wrong.

 

The Massachusetts Minuteman Council, one of the state's largest, with a membership of 18,000 scouts and 330 troops, changed a bylaw July 19th to allow inclusion of homosexual scoutmasters under the "don't ask-don't tell" policy. But, Mark Noel's application was rejected last week anyway.

 

The Minuteman Council said its decision was based on the fact that the Boy Scouts of America national headquarters had already revoked Noel's membership last summer, following his newspaper admission.

 

Brock Bigsby, scout executive for the Mass. Minuteman Council, said the rejection of Noel's application to be a scout leader, was "consistent with the national Boy Scouts policy, since scout leaders would not be permitted to discuss their sexual orientation."

 

However, Friday's Boston Globe accused Bigsby and other Minuteman Council officials of flip-flopping on the homosexual inclusion issue.

 

Prior to the Noel decision, the Globe had quoted Bigsby as saying, "Gay Scout leaders would be permitted as long as they did not discuss their sexual orientation 'in scouting,'" which, according to Bigsby, meant "any scouting-related function."

 

Noel believes the Minuteman Council should recognize the difference between the comments he made to a newspaper and the conversations he had with the boys under his command.

 

"If [bigsby] wants to deny my registration because I said I was gay outside of Scouts in a newspaper, then I am going to appeal it because that policy doesn't make sense," Noel said.

 

Eric Ferrero, a spokesman for the Lesbian and Gay Rights Project of the American Civil Liberties Union noted Bigsby's change in tone from July 19th, when the homosexual-inclusive bylaw was created. "They need to nail down this policy," Ferrero told the Globe. "You either have a policy on non-discrimination, or you don't."

 

Bigsby maintains Noel had ulterior motives in applying with the Mass. Minuteman Council. "It sounds like [Noel] wants to use scouting as a soapbox to advance his personal agenda," Bigsby told the Globe.

 

However, Noel insists his sole reason for applying for a leadership position with the Minuteman Council was to "help scouts get rifle merit badges." Noel is a former police officer, the Globe noted.

 

Included on Noel's readily accessible Internet homepage is an article that appeared in the July 21, 2000 edition of the Birmingham Post-Herald, in which Noel details his former police employment and reasons for leaving.

 

"Back in Atlanta," the Birmingham Post-Herald article reads, "I worked my way through college by serving as a police officer in Cobb County. It was during my second year there that the Cobb County Board of Commissioners passed a resolution condemning the gay lifestyle as being incompatible with the community standards of Cobb County. Needless to say, this caused a big uproar in Atlanta. Some may remember this resolution as the reason why all the Olympic venues for the 1996 games were pulled from Cobb County. I simply remember it as the start of the three most stressful years of my life, since I felt that my job and education had been placed in immediate jeopardy. I retreated into the closet and shut the door tightly. When I finally graduated from college, I left Cobb County and swore to myself that I would never live in the closet again."

 

Noel recently told the Boston Globe, "I am not going to use this as a soapbox; I never have. I said I was gay in a public forum, but I never brought it up with the boys in the troop."

 

However, Noel did tell a different story in a September 7, 2000 editorial, published in the Detroit Free Press.

 

Noel wrote, "A few older scouts in my troop caught me off-guard. The James Dale case had been argued before the U.S. Supreme Court just a few hours before the meeting that night, and these guys wanted to know what I knew about the case, what I thought, and why the Boys Scouts of America discriminate against gays. They had no idea how closely I followed the James Dale case. You see Dale and I are both the same age, we're both Eagle Scouts and members of the Order of the Arrow, we both served as assistant scoutmasters, and when we were in college, we were both leaders of our campus' gay and lesbian group. So, in case you haven't guessed it yet, yes, we're both gay."

 

According to Noel, "None of these scouts knew all this. So when they cornered me - however innocently - with their questions, I instantly found myself in the dreaded, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, dilemma: I can't tell them what I know or what I think, but if I'm going to be trustworthy, I can't lie to them either.

 

"So I dodged the question and got them to discuss the issue among themselves," Noel's editorial reads. "They quickly surprised me again by revealing that a few of them were supporters of the Gay-Straight Alliance at their high school and that one of their friends had even testified before the Vermont legislature during their hearings on the recent civil unions bill."

 

Bigsby said the decision to reject Noel's application was based on the fact that discussion of his homosexuality was off-limits in "any scouting function, any scouting scenario ... that includes newspaper editorials," the Globe reported.