public schools as chartering partners

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

...

"Can you show me in the Constitution where it states that if a school sponsors a religious group, that's illegal?"

 

The 1st and 14th amendments, assuming you're talking about schools run by the state government. The 1st amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing religion, and the 14th extends this prohibition to state governments, so public (state-run) schools can't sponsor religious groups.

 

Why would anyone WANT a public school to run a religious group, anyway? Is this something you would like? Some schools run "no atheists" youth groups, some run "no Jews" youth groups, some run "no Muslims" youth groups, some run "Christians only" youth groups, some run "Southern Baptists only" youth groups, some run "the-same-church-as-the-school-principal only" youth groups, etc. Do you really think this would be a GOOD idea? I think it would be horrible.

[andrews]

This whole thread is another good argument for the separation of School and State. Government control of education has a big problem that if you don't go with the philosophy of the day, you are locked out.

 

It should also be noted that when the First Ammendment was written their were State Churches in many states, which apparently wasn't a violation then.

 

The government schools will ultimately collapse of their own weight. Unfortunately many people will get hurt in the process, but then many people are being hurt now. And it isn't too much exposure to "religion," it is too little exposure to knowledge.

 

Brad

[Eman]

cjmiam,

You make a point about chartering organizations doing nothing and merely being a name on a piece of paper and paying their money. That is one of the problems with Scouting. Charter organizations are the part of Scouting that is there to protect the boys. That is the reason that on the adult application the charter organization has to approve the application. The fact that most don't, and I agree on this, does not make it right. The fact that your troop would change charter organizations if they told you how to run the troop sounds strange. Shouldn't the organization or company that has their name on your flag have at least some input? If you watch the fast start leader training tape they show you how thw charter organization should work.

Merlyn,

I just spoke to a friend who is a Scoutmaster and a government lawyer. When I told him about the charters to public schools he could not believe that any council could be that foolish to let this happen.

Your knowledge of world scouting is interesting. Making the duty to God optional is also interesting. You state that Exploring has removed duty to God, I don't have any knowledge about Exploring so I will ask about that.

I respect your right to be an atheist and I'm trying to understand more about it. From what you've said the only thing you don't associate with is the word God. I always thought that a person had to believe in something. Now the fact that each atheist believes something different is what seperates it from a religion?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

...

"I just spoke to a friend who is a Scoutmaster and a government lawyer. When I told him about the charters to public schools he could not believe that any council could be that foolish to let this happen."

 

I'd say EVERY council has done this; by the BSA's own figures, there are about 10,000 chartered to public schools or other gov't agencies (like fire depts).

 

...

"You state that Exploring has removed duty to God, I don't have any knowledge about Exploring so I will ask about that."

 

The BSA split & moved Exploring into Learning for Life and renamed the other part "Venturing" (which still excludes gays & atheists) back in 1998 or so. There is no 'duty to god' requirement to join Explorers any more.

 

...

"From what you've said the only thing you don't associate with is the word God. I always thought that a person had to believe in something."

 

I *believe* things; gods aren't among them.

 

...

"Now the fact that each atheist believes something different is what seperates it from a religion?"

 

No; atheism isn't a religion, just as "theism" or "trinitarianism" aren't religions. They may be creeds of particular religions, but they aren't religions in themselves.

 

Some religions don't require belief in gods (e.g. some forms of Buddhism), so you can be an atheist and be a member of these religions.

[cjmiam]

Currently our chartering org doesnt know much about how to run a Scout troop. I learned how through experiences, Wood Badge, and other things. I dont see anyone in the chartering org having a real interest in learning how to run a troop. Given that, yes I would have a problem if they tried telling my boys (that use the patrol method) what theyre going to do or not do. I see enough bureaucracies elsewhere and dont need it from my chartering org. They just dont know Scouting. They are meant to affiliate with so that Scout troops can get some cash on a regular basis or have a place to meet. They dont know anything more about background checks than the checkout girls at the supermarket.

[OldGreyEagle]

CJ

 

If you cant get your Charter organization rep to attend Scoutmaster Fundamentals, perhaps you need a new rep. I know you have a rep, you have to to get chartered. The Chartering Organization is legally responsible for what your leaders do, if one of your ASM, (heaven forbid) does something untoward to your scouts, the Chartering organization will be liable. Run that by them and see what they say, being a Chartering Oganization is a reponsiblity they should take seriously

[Bob Russell]

"I disagree, since the DRP (which all BSA leaders must subscribe to) states that only theists can be "the best kinds of citizens"; that directly implies that atheists CAN'T be the best kinds of citizens. I'd say that's teaching prejudice."

 

Merlyn, I will always resist the labeling of Boy Scouts as being prejudiced, when what we have is a value-based organization following its values. And before you bring up the possibility of banning minorities, etc., characteristics such as race, sex and national origin are unchangeable and are not values. Religious beliefs, or lack of them, are values that can change in each of us. Boy Scouting picking its values is no different than other groups picking their values: the Sierra Club would certainly not accept its leaders if they advocated strip mining or clear cutting, and the NRA would not accept its leaders supporting gun banning. Beliefs such as religion should not be factors where views are irrelevant, such as in most employment and housing cases. But values-based organizations, whether the Boy Scouts, Sierra Club or the NRA, etc., should be able to set its values, and not be yelled at as being prejudiced.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

...

"Religious beliefs, or lack of them, are values that can change in each of us. Boy Scouting picking its values is no different than other groups picking their values: the Sierra Club would certainly not accept its leaders if they advocated strip mining or clear cutting, and the NRA would not accept its leaders supporting gun banning. Beliefs such as religion should not be factors where views are irrelevant, such as in most employment and housing cases. But values-based organizations, whether the Boy Scouts, Sierra Club or the NRA, etc., should be able to set its values, and not be yelled at as being prejudiced."

 

I'll criticize the Boy Scouts just as I would a youth group that admitted all boys except for Jews; I would especially criticize such a group that said only non-Jews can be "the best kinds of citizens". It wasn't so long ago that "no Jews" organizations were common enough to have their own euphemism: Restricted clubs.

 

If you want to be part of a discriminatory organization, you'll have to learn to live with criticism of those policies.

[evmori]

Merlyn_LeRoy,

You will notice the 1st ammendment also has "freedom of religion" in it. Nowhere in the entire constitution do you see "separation of church & state." What you do see is the state is not allowed to demand a religious belief nor are they allowed to hinder a religious belief.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

 

...

"You will notice the 1st ammendment also has "freedom of religion" in it."

 

No, it doesn't:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

The concept of "freedom of religion" is there, but not the exact phrase.

 

...

"Nowhere in the entire constitution do you see "separation of church & state." "

 

Just like "freedom of religion", the concept is there, but not the exact phrase.

 

...

"What you do see is the state is not allowed to demand a religious belief nor are they allowed to hinder a religious belief."

 

The state is also not allowed to promote belief over non-belief; see Everson v. Board of Education or Torcaso v. Watkins.

 

Let me ask you: do you think it would be legal for a public school to run a youth group that excluded Jews? I'm not asking if you think it would be good, or likely to happen, just legal.

[evmori]

"Nowhere in the entire constitution do you see "separation of church & state." "

 

Just like "freedom of religion", the concept is there, but not the exact phrase.

 

I don't see the concept anywhere.

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

 

By not letting a religios group, regardless of the religion, meet in a public school is prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Letting a group use a facility isn't endorsing the group.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

 

[sctmom]

I have to agree with Merlyn, it is endorsing that religion if you don't let ALL groups meet on school property.

 

Mr. Mori, are you ready for Wiccans to meet at your school? Are you ready for Atheists to meet at your school?

 

Freedom of religion does not just mean freedom to choose which church you go to but also the freedom to believe or not believe.

 

There is a story on the ACLU webpage somewhere that tells of a case where a small child was MADE to write about Jesus and say Christian prayers and made fun of at school, even though the school knew the family was Jewish. When did this take place? Oh, about 4 years ago! Read the article and you will be amazed at what these children went through.

 

I have think the BSA is okay with their policy, but the schools do need to make sure they are open to all. I bet that most people (at least where I live) if approached by Wiccans to use the school ground, first would not know what Wicca is, and once they found out would come up with a reason not to let them use the school property. They would think they were right in their decision, most likely very proud of it, even though it is wrong.

 

 

[sctmom]

Dern it, I should review before posting....that last paragraph..

"I have to think the BSA is okay", should be "I happen to think the BSA is okay".

 

Let me also add that my beliefs are MY beliefs and who am I to say that my god is the one and only god and millions of others are wrong. But that's just my opinion

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

...

"By not letting a religios group, regardless of the religion, meet in a public school is prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Letting a group use a facility isn't endorsing the group."

 

This whole topic is about public schools CHARTERING Scout units, which (as I made clear waaay back when I started this topic) is not at all the same as Scout units meeting in schools on the same basis as other community groups. When you have a school running a "no atheists" youth group, that violates the establishment clause.

[cjmiam]

I guess Im not speaking what I mean. My only point is that most chartering organizations dont appear too interested in what we actually do. Whether they should or shouldnt isnt my point. The lucky ones have members in both the chartering org and the troop. But until recently ours didnt. Now Im in both. I am trying to help them understand, but most of them just put their trust in me the SM. And Ive got a good feeling that that is the norm across America. Plus, certain groups dont often times want to be Boy Scouts. Most of `em are over 75. Id love to see even one of them come camping with us.