public schools as chartering partners

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Again, you Just Don't Get It.

 

Religious freedom ALSO means that public schools can't run youth groups that exclude kids who have the "wrong" religious views.

 

THAT'S why all BSA charters to public schools will be removed (by court order if neccessary).

 

Since the BSA insists it's a private, discriminatory group, it will have to ACT like one.

[cjmiam]

I'm not sure that you are understanding my point either. I am proclaiming that public schools are just that, the publics schools and that any group should be able to ask for support, guidance, admittance, refuge, or other means of assistance. It is at the publics discretion whether or not to support any individual cause based on that groups merits.

 

I have no problem with any group requesting a public school charter. Whether it is granted should be left to the people.

 

Why do you decree that this would be best handled in the courts? Would it not be better to determine the will of the people that pay for the services that would be rendered?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

I *do* understand your point; your method would allow public schools to run youth groups that only whites could join, or football teams that excludes Jews.

 

Sorry, public schools can't do this.

[cjmiam]

Im not sure we are in agreement with what the role of the chartering partner is. In Scouting they do not run the unit. They help with securing a meeting place, approving leaders, etc. The charter partner, at least from my experience is not involved intimately with the Scouting program.

 

I believe that you are now comparing inherent traits with moral choice. I dont believe anyone is going to argue that how God (or nature if you wish) made an individual is comparable to how they choose to live their life. For that reason, I believe that an individual school district or the people would obviously see a flaw in the merit of a whites only group. Further, I believe that they would see no benefit of such a group to their school.

 

I have faith in the people, our laws, our government and In God We Trust.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

According to the BSA, the chartering partner owns the unit. According to yourself, the chartering partner approves the leaders.

 

And public schools can't reject atheist leaders.

 

Your reply implies that you think a whites-only school run group would be legal, just not popular. Do you know ANY history?

[cjmiam]

1. Im not sure exactly what ownership entails. Maybe the BSA needs to look at its association with the chartering partner. The association that I have been familiar with, from personal experience, does not seem to mandate a subscription of principles from the unit to the chartering partner.

 

2. Employment law is a separate issue. I dont believe the BSA is asking the chartering partner to adopt its policies or beliefs in how it practices business. Many organizations and businesses partner with one another, but dont rewrite their bi-laws to fit those of their partner because of it. I dont think anyone is asking anyone else to sacrifice beliefs or adopt new beliefs. Simple administration of another groups policy does not mean that one necessary subscribes to those principles personally or professionally in their own activities.

 

3. Absolutely not. I said that you are trying to compare what God (or nature if you wish) has given us to the way people choose to live their life and that any individual with an active thought process can determine the difference. I am very familiar with history. I am also familiar with past and current law, congressional mandates, presidential precedents, public sentiment, legal proceedings, and political activist groups that seem to be making it their mission to degrade the value system in America.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, Just to make this discussion livlier, I would like all of us to consider the Venture Oath

 

As a Venturer, I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God and in the courage, strength, and traditions of our people. I will, therefore, be faithful in my religious duties and will maintain a personal sense of honor in my own life. I will treasure my American heritage and will do all I can to preserve and enrich it. I will recognize the dignity and worth of all humanity and will use fair play and goodwill in my daily life. I will acquire the Venturing attitude that seeks truth in all things and adventure on the frontiers of our changing world.

 

If these are words of discrimination, then so be it, in the Scout Oath when we promise "... to help other people at all times" I guess we are not inclusive enough.

 

And if the ACLU chooses to, and succeeds in wrenching unit charters from Governmental Units, I know I will respect the ruling. I will in no way agree with it, but I will respect it. I do hope the orphaned units find a private institution so the boys may continue. If the units fall apart it will be a tragedy. But, as I have said in a thread past, the measure of a man is his strength of character under adversity.

 

If the courts rule governmental units cant charter boy scout units, then they cant. There are always alternatives.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

To cjmiam: "ownership" means exactly that. Read up on what the BSA describes as a chartering partner. And yes, public schools can't follow the BSA's requirement to reject people based on religious views.

 

To OldGreyEagle: Yes, the Venturer oath is also unlawful for government agencies to enforce.

[OldGreyEagle]

Dang Merl,

 

I thought that agreeing with you would elicit some kind of positive response, even if I admitted it grudgingly.

 

I think I am agreeing with you, if the courts rule public schools cant charter scout units then they cant.

 

I thought I was pretty clear about that, but being such an idiot, maybe I wasnt lucid enough

[cjmiam]

Hooray for leaders, that through adversity continue to teach children the values found in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Hooray for men and women with the courage to stand up for what they believe!

 

Hooray for Scouts everywhere that live the Scout Oath and Law on a daily basis!

 

Hooray for the thousands of businesses, United Way Agencies, American Legions, Lion Clubs, Churches, and schools that choose to support an organization second to none in character development for youth!

 

Hooray for elected officials everywhere that listen to the people and are fighting for Scouting!

 

Hooray for the Supreme Court of the United States of America that reinforced every Americans constitutional right to freely associate with whomever they choose!

 

Hooray for all that still believe that there are moral absolutes!

 

As a good friend of mine once said Hooray for heroes!

 

 

[jmcquillan]

And...hurrah for all those willing to stand in the face of obstinate opposition and say just that. Hurrah! :-)

[OldGreyEagle]

I thought I would reserect this thread so those of you who missed Mr LeRoys first forray into the forum will see what was said last year

[slontwovvy]

Gotta love the ACLU. Our area had public-school chartered troops and packs (many of them) until the ACLU came in and forced them to find new partners (two or three couldn't, and folded).

 

The ACLU is incredibly hypocritical. They said nothing while a group of Buddhist monks from Tibet gave a presentation on their religion at a high school, yet attack when anything based on Christianity sets foot on campus. Rather sad considering the ACLU was started to defend civil liberties. Maybe they should have stuck to it.

 

Anytime the minority has more rights than the majority, you're in trouble.

[kjamma4]

The most important piece of this thread is the BSA's ability to adopt should this case go against the government. I hope that they are true to their motto, "Be Prepared."

[Eman]

Schools in my area run FCA groups, fellowship of christian atheletes. This is run at the school by school advisors. I know you don't have to prove your atheletic status, but I'm sure you must be a christian to join.