How do you approach the Gay issue?

[Mike Long]

We hear so much about the battle going back and forth with this issue and how much it is hurting people on both sides. Some folks would have the world believe that we actively hunt down homosexuals and that we preach "Nazi-esque" hate propaganda against homosexuals.

 

I have talked to many scouters in my area, all of them at various points of the spectrum on this issue. I can't find one who will admit to even discussing the issue with their Scouts, now or even before this whole issue reared up. How is it that two court cases have divided our great movement so badly? (I can only think of two cases that apply.)

 

All of this over two people? I know what some of you will say and it will be similar to this quote. I'm not sure who said it but goes like this "No American is free unless every last one of us is free." The rest of you will say freedom to associate includes the freedom to not associate. but that is not the question here so please try not to re-argue those points.

 

My question to all of you is this: Do you discuss homosexuality with your boys? How about sexuality in general? If you do discuss it at all what to you say and how do you say it.

 

In my troop the issue rarely comes up but I do make it a point to tell our boys that Scouts don't hate anyone and that we are not better than anyone else. We do however attempt to live our lives by a code that not everyone else agrees with. Rude and disrespectful speech is quickly addressed and corrected (ie. boys calling each other "Gay, Pollack, Flip, ect.) The question of what is right or wrong when it comes to sexuality is something that they need to discuss with their parents and priest. I do have my personal opinion on the matter but I tell Scouts that they should consult their parents and priest first.

 

As to the Gay Scout issue, I tell the Scouts as it is. "The BSA does not believe that openly homosexual people should be scout leaders and some people don't think that the BSA has the right to say that. Because the courts think that we have the right to set membership standards, the people that disagree have decided to do their best to hurt the BSA until the BSA changes it's mind." Accurate discription?

 

Feedback is greatly welcomed.

[sst3rd]

As this appears to be a heated topic in a variety of other forums, I have only needed to address this topic in an adult leaders gathering, once. The current BSA policy was discussed. That is the only action required. As far as the Scouts are concerned, this topic is simply not part of the program. When and if the topic is brought up, two adult leaders and the parent(s) will hold a private discussion with the Scout, also discussing BSA's current policy. It stops there.

[jmcquillan]

Our troop committee decided upon a policy to deal with this issue when it really began to boil. We simply decided, as a group, that the issue is not part of the program (as stated above), and that if the issue did come up, not one of us wanted to take the place of Mom & Dad. Your last paragraph pretty much states what we decided we would say, if called upon. To date, that hasn't happened. We feel that, with a large troop like ours, the likelyhood that parents of Scouts in the troop having opinions varying from ours is pretty good. So we don't want to be preaching something that Mom & Dad might not agree with. So we just leave it alone. But we have made plans to canvas the parents of the troop to see if there's a need to sit down as a group and make sure everyone understand what the issues (on both sides) are, without the Scouts. By doing so, then we would have a better feeling for what we, as leaders, should and should not say. This is another one of those issues that ties ones hands. We have to have a great deal of respect for the parents and family values of the Scouts, and must tread lightly in that arena.

[Mike Long]

In my first post I said the issue rarely comes up-to clarify: it came up once with one Scout and twice with two different parents outside of Scouting.

 

Your replies are pretty much what I have been hearing from everyone I ask. I have only had one Scout bring up the issue and his statement we simply to the effect that he thought that it was horribly unfair that thousands of Scouts are being hurt because of a handful of people disagree.

 

I have to agree with him and personally I don't even see why this is an issue. Please don't misunderstand the statement I just made. I personally disagree with homosexuality and the legitimization of it yet I do have openly homosexual friends. My point is that nowhere at no time has the issue of homosexuality or even the topic of sexuality been a part of the program or discussions at any troop's meetings that I can find. In every single case I find, everyone states that the issue is best left between the Scout, his parents and his religious leader OUTSIDE of Scouting. It just seems ridiculous that we are taking so much heat as an organization for an issue that, in a troop by troop basis, not a single one of us will even address.

 

Anyone else see this?

(This message has been edited by Mike Long)

[eisely]

How does one address this with your scouts? Tough question.

 

I agree strongly with the approach that Mike Long has taken. It is less simple for us in the San Francisco bay area. We did discuss this in committee but have not taken any conrete steps. I don't know what if anything has come up between the boys and our scoutmaster. The parents have mixed attitudes on this subject.

 

In this part of the country the youth interested and involved in scouting are getting seriously mixed messages. There are popular TV programs (e.g. Will and Grace) that depict open homosexuality as quite normal. Most public schools have active programs to promote diversity, which includes embracing homosexualtiy as an acceptable life style.

 

I have three sons, the youngest of whom just turned 15. The two older sons believe that homosexual marriage should be legalized. I know they didn't get that at home. The youngest disagrees with the scout policy of excluding gays. My wife and I do not teach homophobia so this has not disrupted the household.

 

Part of the problem that the movement has is that it allows the media to set the agenda in depicting non acceptance as hatred. I think all the regular visitors to this forum would see a major distinction, but a lot of people do not.

 

The good news is that the issue has not disturbed our scouting program. We just go on doing our thing as best we can.

 

 

[jmcquillan]

Every time I see these kinds of postings, I find myself being irresistably, but unhappily drawn into the discussion. But it's a discussion, like Mike said, that few address on a troop by troop basis. I don't think that the lack of attention to the subject stems from an unwillingness to tackle tough subject matter. Rather it comes from an unwillingness to allow the subject to intrude upon the program and goals the each troop has for the boys it serves. We've discussed the matter in the troop committee, as I indicated above. And, without anyone placing their views on the subject 'on the table' for discussion, we just all agreed that the matter had no place in our schedule. The time may come when the troop WILL have to address the issue. The time may come when a family or individual will make it an issue...'in our face'. But that time has not come, and we choose to keep our eyes focused on the prize... the Scouting program and all that it offers to the boys in our charge.

 

Myself, I currently have no homosexual friends (that I know of). If they're there, they keep it to themselves, which is fine by me. None of my aquaintences in Scouting, or otherwise, nor I, flaunt our heterosexual tendencies and lifestyle in the face of others. and that's the way it should be. My lifestyle is mine. And others can have any lifestyle they so choose. I don't feel compelled to accept their lifestyle. Nor do I feel compelled to accept someone, whose lifestyle I object to, to participate along side of me in any program I choose to participate in. Especially if they choose to make their particular lifestyle the focus of their being by making it a subject of discussion. I guess this tends towards the 'don't ask, don't tell' theory, which is fine with me. I don't need to know.

[cjmiam]

Scouters, I see, know and live your dilemma as well. I will keep my commentary short. If a mother doesnt teach her child to not play in the street, they may very well play in the street. If a father doesnt teach his son the dangers of guns, they may very well find out the consequences on their own. If their pastor doesnt teach the dangers of dealing with the devil, they may find out the hard way. Im not sure whos responsible for teaching sexuality. I certainly know that Im not too comfortable leaving it up to my local school district. I believe everyone is very aware of the BSAs stand on the matter and for that reason, why would it be unreasonable to assume that they may teach what they preach? Im not talking about 1.5 hour lectures, but Im not talking about ignoring or wandering away from the issue either. I personally feel a responsibility to talk with my Scouts about any issue they want. Remember, many kids dont feel comfortable talking to their parents about some issues. If they ask and sometimes if they dont ask, I talk to them about guns, drugs, God, knots, lashings, helping others, camping, wilderness survival, stealing, suicide, and sex. These often times arent planned program topics, but come up out of the blue. All that Im saying is that I hope that we as leaders dont feel we must cower away, dig a hole and try to ignore the issue. I pray that God will give you the words, wisdom and courage to say what is best.

[chanoneescouter]

There is no need for any adult leader to "cower away" from an issue, but there most certainly are certain issues that are, and always have been, the responsibility of the parent. I would NEVER presume to have the right nor the responsibility to discuss sex with a boy other than my own. How can I presume to know what the wishes of the Scout's parents are in this issue?

[cjmiam]

Im not talking about having weekly programs on such topics. Nor am I talking about undermining the responsibility of the parent. However, if a kid asks (and to me even if he doesn't), there is nothing wrong with telling a 12 year old that he shouldnt be having sex. Further, I believe most parents enroll their kids in Scouting to reinforce the traditional family values that they try to instill at home. Theyre hoping someone else will let their kids know that drugs are bad, abstinence is okay, its cool to believe in God, and traditional family values are something everyone should strive for. Scouting isnt your local shopping club. We have values and I believe after all the latest events, everyone is very aware what Scouting stands for. Why would anyone not expect us to walk the talk?

[cjmiam]

Im not talking about having weekly programs on such topics. Nor am I talking about undermining the responsibility of the parent. However, if a kid asks (and to me even if he doesn't), there is nothing wrong with telling a 12 year old that he shouldnt be having sex. Further, I believe most parents enroll their kids in Scouting to reinforce the traditional family values that they try to instill at home. Theyre hoping someone else will let their kids know that drugs are bad, abstinence is okay, its cool to believe in God, and traditional family values are something everyone should strive for. Scouting isnt your local shopping club. We have values and I believe after all the latest events, everyone is very aware what Scouting stands for. Why would anyone not expect us to walk the talk?

[cjmiam]

Im not talking about having weekly programs on such topics. Nor am I talking about undermining the responsibility of the parent. However, if a kid asks (and to me even if he doesn't), there is nothing wrong with telling a 12 year old that he shouldnt be having sex. Further, I believe most parents enroll their kids in Scouting to reinforce the traditional family values that they try to instill at home. Theyre hoping someone else will let their kids know that drugs are bad, abstinence is okay, its cool to believe in God, and traditional family values are something everyone should strive for. Scouting isnt your local shopping club. We have values and I believe after all the latest events, everyone is very aware what Scouting stands for. Why would anyone not expect us to walk the talk?

[WoodBadger]

I have a couple of thoughts on what we do and do not end up discussing with scouts and parents. On the gay issue our sponsoring church brought it up. We are in an urban area, and a significant number of the churches disagree with even their own national organizations on the subject of homosexuality and full inclusion of gays in the life of the church. Our sponsoring church includes gays and lesbians fully in membership and leadership. The Vestry was concerned enough with the BSA stance to consider not renewing the charters of our Troop, Pack and Venture Crew. We talked it over and assured them that the leadership of the units did not preach or support discrimination against gays and that some of us were actively questioning the council on the implementation of that policy. We had a Troop Committee meeting on the same and agreed to disagree with National and work within for change. That satisfied the church.

 

Only the older boys (16-17) really asked any questions about the policy (it's pretty much over the heads of the younger guys) and I stated for them, informally on a camping trip, what the policy was, how I felt about it, and why it wasn't going to change any time soon. The older boys then went on to make sure the younger guys stopped calling each other "queer" and "fag" and "gay". All in all a pretty healthy result.

 

Now I want to talk to the boys, probably all of them, about gun violence in their schools. I haven't opened the topic yet but hope to do so soon, beginning with my next Scoutmaster's Minute. This issue concerns me more than the gay issue (and may be one we can actually unite on) Has anyone discussed this in Troop meetings yet?

[Mike Long]

Gun violence, now that is a scary topic. Woodbadger I agree with you, I find it a much more relevant topic to our boys lives than the gay issue.

 

Actually yes I have discussed gun violence with our scouts as a Scoutmaster's minute. I approached it from the angle of controlling one's temper. There is an old SM's minute that discusses controlling your temper using an axe as an example.

 

In short, when you heat the metal of an axe head it loses the temper in the metal causing two things. First the metal is not evenly hardened for use and is no longer useful as an axe (or for any purpose other than a door stop) and second the metal can react to impact in an unpredictable fashion. In some cases the metal can shatter and shoot out shrapnal like a hand grenade that can hurt innocent people nearby. I then described the latest gun(child)man as an axe that lost its temper and reacted unpredictably and hurt innocent people.

 

I also tell the boys that all of these shootings (at least the ones that didn't involve serious mental illness) would not have happened had the the shooters been able to keep their tempers under control and found a more positive outlet for their frustrations like running, a boxing class, playing drums, TALKING ABOUT IT TO A FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER ect.

 

Just as a matter of record, I don't think that anything is completely preventable. The best we can hope for is to take steps to minimize the impact before something happens and to react quickly and decisively once it does happen. I'm not a defeatist or a pessimist I just think that those who strive to creat "fool-proof" solutions can never fully take into accout the ingenuity of fools.

 

I find it very disconcerting that I long for the days when kids still had fistfights with each other rather than empting a clip into someone.

Sick.

 

BTW-That SM's minute that I mentioned and many others can be found in the Troop Program Resources book. A very good addition to your Scout library.