The vindicitve ACLU

[eisely]

The following article describes yet another attempt to destroy the boys scouts as an effective organization because some people disagree with its policies. This comes from the local paper in San Luis Obispo. Fortunately I stopped supporting ACLU years ago. You'd thing we were talking about the Hitler Youth here.

 

ACLU wants Scouts out of public building, Lopez campground

Richard Jackoway

The Tribune

 

The Boy Scouts should pay up or abandon its traditional campgrounds of Camp French near Lopez Lake, according to the American Civil Liberties Union.

 

Calling the Scouts policy of discrimination against gays and atheists tragically misguided, ACLU officials raised the possibility of lawsuits this week if the Camp French lease with the county and a separate lease in Atascadero are not changed or terminated.

 

The ACLU petitioned the city of Atascadero to cut off use by the Scouts of a room in the Atascadero Lake Pavilion building.

 

Atascadero City Attorney Roy Hanley said he believes the Pavilion lease is legal because the Scout troops reimbursed the city through extensive improvements to the 1,600-square-foot meeting room.

 

County administrator David Edge and Deputy County Counsel Jac Crawford were unavailable Thursday to discuss terms and legality of the Camp French lease.

 

The ACLU of Southern California joined the SLO County chapter in sending the letters.

 

Our letters ask the county and the city of Atascadero to stop subsidizing discrimination by giving rent-free leases to the Boy Scouts, said Martha Matthews, staff attorney for the ACLU of Southern California.

 

Continuing this subsidy of the Boy Scouts would violate Californias constitutional guarantees of equal protection and of separation of church and state and would also be vulnerable to a taxpayer suit for waste of public resources, Matthews wrote.

 

The ACLU recently filed suit against the city of San Diego for a similar situation, she noted.

 

Scouts have used the county-owned Camp French facility as a camping and training area for more than a quarter century.

 

The county lets the Scouts use it rent-free in exchange for improvements constructed by them and other civic organizations.

 

Obviously, it would be a big blow if it was taken away, said Vic Enchelmayer, district director for the local Scouts council. We do a lot of outdoor activities, weekend camp outs, adult training and other activities there.

 

While the Scouts use Camp French extensively, Enchelmayer noted that other groups can and do reserve it.

 

Like Camp French, the Pavilion room is available for other groups to use, though the Scouts have first rights.

 

According to the Pavilion lease, approved in 1996, the Scouts were required to purchase and install carpet, acoustic ceiling panels, fire sprinklers, a divider wall, lighting fixtures, heating and air conditioning units and closets. They also pay for utilities, Hanley said.

 

The Pavilion was built in the 1980s during a recession, and the room was left unfinished. The scouts stepping forward to do the work was valuable for the city, Hanley said.

 

At the time it was not in the cards that the city was going to do the work on its own nickel, he said.

 

For the Boy Scouts of America, the ACLU letters are only the latest in many legal squabbles it has found itself involved in locally and around the country. Last year, the group won a U.S. Supreme Court case allowing the organization to ban gays and atheists from the organization.

 

In the fall, the local Los Padres Council, which includes scouts in San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara counties, fired its executive director after he announced that he is gay.

 

Len Lanzi is suing the Scouts, arguing that the Supreme Court case did not allow the organization to discriminate in employment.

 

The ACLU said the Lanzi case is further proof that local government should not be helping the Scouts in any way.

 

The Boy Scouts of America has abandoned the values it used to stand for honesty, fairness and respect for diversity in favor of bias and exclusion, Matthews said.

 

The ACLU is asking local governments to pass nondiscrimination ordinances that cover sexual orientation.

 

Both leases have clauses saying that the Boy Scouts must comply with all local laws or the leases can be immediately terminated, Matthews said.

 

The lease for the Pavilion room expires in 2006. The Camp French lease is good through 2031.

 

Two years ago, the local Boy Scouts moved its office from a San Luis Obispo city-owned building after the city removed lease subsidies. At the time, ACLU officials said they might take up the Camp French and Atascadero Pavilion leases at a later date.

 

 

[Mike Long]

It might be un-Scout like but I would just love to bring down the ACLU.

 

After all that they have done to so many innocent people how can America not see that they have become a tool of a malicious minority acting to further their own political interests at the expense of everyones freedom.

[OldGreyEagle]

The VINDICATIVE ACLU?????

 

Returning in kind what we receive from those who persecute us because they dont understand us accomplishes nothing but ratify that we are bigots.

 

When the court case was taken to the Supreme Court and the ruling was given, what did you think was gonna happen? It is easy to lead in good and prosperous times, it is when we are sorely tested that we show what we stand for, and who we are. Calling for the downfall of what we proclaim to be a vindicative organization shows us to be mean and low

[Mike Long]

I agree and in that lies the challenge before us.

 

Mean and low? No, just very frustrated and tossing out poorly-thought out sentiments.

[eisely]

Since I chose the headline, it is obvious that I have little use for the ACLU either. Many years ago I was a contributor to the ACLU. Be that as it may, I also prefer to focus on the more positive things we can do.

 

It has become increasingly clear to me that there is not a unanimous view within scouts on the advisability or correctness of the scouts' policies on homosexuals. The scouts' policy is one that I happen to agree with rather strongly.

 

My purpose in posting these news stories is to raise awareness of this particular threat to the scouting movement. BSA will continue to do OK in funding. For every corporation that cuts out its funding under pressure, others will step forward. The real threat is loss of access to public facilities for meetings and other activities. I think the approach that the local council is taking in Broward County Florida to litigate against the school district is the correct approach. There are times when one has to stand up to abuse and discrimination by the thought police. One can still be civil while one does so.

[cjmiam]

Look folks, I'm not sure what side of the isle you sit on, but I'd have to say that the past 8 years haven't been very good morally for this great nation. But theres light now and I think were going to see some things turn around. All we need are people willing to stand up and fight. The ACLUs sole purpose is to attack anyone that has a mission different from their own. They think we all should just check our ethics, morality and membership guidelines at the door in the name of acceptance. When I say fight, I dont mean that we need to draw arms. Rather, we should be willing to stand up and let people know who we are and what were about. We need to let people know how good Scouting is. We need to remind people constantly what our Mission is. And we need to be above the tactics of the ACLU. Theyre not going to crawl into a hole, but if our membership stood up with all of our supporters, believe me, we would outnumber them 10 to 1! Lets not forget who won in our nations highest court. In the end I guarantee that the winner will not be the one that calls the other the most names Keep your head up and if one door goes shut, Im confident another five will open.

[OldGreyEagle]

The moral decline of the last 8 years???

 

Funny, the moral decline for me started with the Watergate Investigation. When a sitting president tried to cover-up the illeagal activites of his employess.

 

Then again, when a president tried to swop arms for hostages and had his trusted aide, you know, Oliie North lie under oath to Congress because he knew he was right.

 

Then again in the GO-GO 80's, we got the anti-hero on DALLAS, Larry Hagman playing JR EWING and his ends justifies the means of getting rich and power.

 

The last 8 years have been rift of scandal, no doubt about it. But let us not kid ourselves that moral decline started in 1992. It has been around for a rather long time.

 

What we do is reinforce the scout oath and law to our scouts, let then know what is right and wrong and when word reaches their ears of the latest scandals, they will at least know its wrong

[eisely]

Hmm. I just noticed that I mispelled vindictive.

 

Dear Old Greyeagle.

 

I would take the moral decline back to the sixties. It started with Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara lying to the american public about their intentions in Southeast Asia. That, coupled with the explosion of a drug culture and so called sexual revolution has set the tone for public discourse on morality. Nixon also acted despicably, but Clinton has set a whole new standard for debasing the presidency. This is why scouting is more important than ever.

 

I hate to sound corny, but we all need to stand tall and set the example in doing so. The issue about exclusion of homosexuals is a vexing issue. I work alongside homosexuals every day and enjoy good working relationships with them. They are fine people. This does not mean that I have to endorse every aspect of their lifestyles anymore than I expect them to endorse all my choices.

 

To me the issue of homosexuality and youth organizations is a factual question about why some people are homosexuals and others are heterosexuals. As a matter of idealogical belief the outspoken leaders of the homosexual community maintain that they are all born that way. I have yet to see convincing evidence of that. If homosexuality is a matter of choice, then we as parents and scout leaders have both a right and a duty to choose what we think is right for our own sons and the sons that others entrust to us. There are many complexities involved in human sexual development and behavior that I do not pretend to fully understand. But until somebody convinces me that all homosexuals are really born that way, I see no reason for BSA to change its policy, and good reasons to maintain that policy.

 

The continuing attacks on scouting are not based on goodwill but on intolerance for others, that is us, who hold different beliefs.

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, Ok Mr Eisley, you got me. Moral decline may be traced back a whole lot further than Watergate. And While President Clinton is not any sort of role model for any one who suscribes to even half of the scout law, I cannot see him blamed for the state the country is in. He definitely profited from the current culture.

 

Whats the answer? To stand up for our values, to take the flack when it is fired. We dont want homosexuals in? Then we must be able to deflect the attacks and not wonder why they cant understand that we are just "nice guys" who dont beleive the same way they do.

 

We may be able to learn alot about passive resistance by studying Ghandi and Martin Luther King. They changed the globe and did it with nonviolence and lead by example.

 

 

[eisely]

Dear OldGreyEagle,

 

We do indeed live in interesting times. The results of the last general election do reflect the cultural divides within our country. Neither economic policy nor matters of war or preace were on the agenda. The entire subtext was morality and its place in the public square.

 

In your earlier contribution to this dialogue you allude to the impact of the entertainment industry on morality today. The same people who argue that exposure to entertainment has no impact on human behavior are the same people who sell hundreds of millions of dollars of advertising time on the same media based on the proposition that exposing viewers to 30 second spots can modify human behavior. If such expenditures have no effect, then a lot of very shrewd business people need to be removed from their positions. Hmmm. Do I detect an inconsistency here?

 

I am not in favor of censorship, and parents do have a responsibility for controlling what their children are exposed to. Ha! Does anybody out there really believe they can fully control what their kids are seeing and listening to? Not even the Amish are fully successful in doing that.

 

At least scouting gives parents a somewhat sheltered environment where their children can be momentarily diverted to something better. I want to keep it that way.

[jmcquillan]

Now there's a very interesting point. The responsibility of parents to control what their children are exposed to...

 

It's been quite a few years that I've held the belief that part of the problem with our society these days is the 'abdication of responsibility' on the part of many parents in bringing up Johnny and Jane. There seems to be quite an undercurrent in all that we see and hear on the news that points to a general feeling that many folks would rather have the schools and others (like Scouts...BSA...Babysitters of America) bring up their children.

 

Of course we can't protect our kids today from all that is out there to see and do. Of course we can't control all of that either. But how simple is it for a parent to sit down with a child and TALK about what they've been exposed to. How much of a chore can it possibly be to TALK to ones children about those things and how they relate to the basic values and tenents of their family? You're absolutely correct about the inconsistency of the media circus. And that type of double standard makes those discussions even more of a pressing issue.

 

Long ago, when I was a Scoutmaster, I made it part of my Scoutmaster Conferences to delve into that arena. Not to take the place of Mom & Dad, for sure. But certainly to encourage all of my Scouts to take the time to talk with their parents about issues like that. I even had my own Scoutmasters Newsletter where I could make the same point with parents....TALK TO YOUR KIDS...please.

 

Lord forgive me for pontificating. There are some issues that get the blood boiling, and this is one. Of course, in the back of my mind there's a little voice that questions whether that particular effort made any impact at all. I can only hope.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Per normal, we are ranging far afield on this one, but its a conversation well worth it.

 

This is not an original thought, but I dont know where I heard it. America has always had guns, America has always had kids, but until very recently, America didnt have kids taking guns to school to shoot others. What changed? The role models kids had to follow.

 

Can we blame the entertainment industry? Perhaps they contribute, but does anyone remember when the network NBC stood for Nothing But Cowboys? And every week James Arness as Matt Dillon opened the show with a deadly shoot out. Then there was Have Gun Will Travel with a hired gun as the hero, The Rifleman, (and ex-Chicago Cub first baseman no less) who was a heck of a father and as lethal with a tricked up fast shooting rifle.

 

Bonnaza had good family values and a shoot out or two always improved ratings. Tombstone territory and the texas rangers round out the western fare, and none of them, I believe, were not exactly non-violent.

 

Then again, how many of you followed the exploits of Sargeant Saunders, Kirby, and Little John on Combat always knowing this weeks replacements were as good as dead as soon as they opened their mouths. Twelve O'CLock high was good if you preferred death in the skies.

 

Meanwhile the army movies from the sands of Iwo Jima to a thousand other epics always had death and destruction and I defy the modern purveyors of horror to outdo the master Alfred Hitchcock.

 

Violence has been a staple of American entertainment. The original definition of "geek" was the guy in the side show who would bite the head off a chicken. Each generation has its geeks in the entertainment industry. David Bowie broke ground for Alice Cooper who was followed by Ozzie Osbourne who was out done by Marlilyn Manson. (pity the poor guy who will replace him)

 

The point is, we have always had violent entertainment in our culture so why is it now that we claim its out of control?

 

I think the last line in the song Blame Canada" from the South Park Movie says it best

 

"We must blame them and cause a fuss

Before someone thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus"

 

As DeWalt Kelley said in the classic Pogo comic strip " We have met the ememy and they is us"

 

And during my trip down memory lane, i would be remiss if i didnt add that mom was at home, Dad would play ball on the week end and heaven help you if the school called and said you were caught misbehaving because no one thought of sueing the school district for invading a kids space, or privacy and corporal punishment was the norm.

 

We can all come up with reasons as to why things are the way they are, but assigning blame wont change things, but living the scout oath and law will set an example for our youth to follow.

 

[eisely]

As long as we are going off on tangents, I thought I might respond to the point about violence in the media and youth violence today. I am neither an advocate of gun control nor a hunter. I think that introducing youth to firearms in the controlled context of scouting at organized camps is a healthy thing to do. Having said that, it would not bother me personally one bit to see all guns disappear forever. However, that would take divine intervention which I personally am not expecting.

 

But it is interesting and informative to note that one European country, namely Switzerland, has a different gun culture and little gun violence. Gun ownership is very high, and even small villages have their target ranges and competitions. But you don't see the level of gun violence there that you see in the good ol USA. The conclusion is obvious: gun control per se will not solve the problem of gun violence. Gun violence is a cultural problem best addressed through programs like scouts.

[chanoneescouter]

We can blame television, lawyers, videogames, Nixon, Clinton, or Dubya (sorry, can't bring myself to use "Predident" and "Bush" together - that's an oxymoron!), but the fact is, the blame falls squarely on my PARENTAL shoulders. Take a good look at daytime TV - a popular topic lately is "Teens in Trouble"...what is 99% of the time the common factor in the lives of troubled kids? The lack of a two parent family, and the failure to instill values. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of single-parent families out there doing absolutely fine, but when there are problems, it's because Daddy decided to bail out on his responsibilities.

I have never thought of myself as a "replacement" parent for any of the Scouts I have worked with, only someone who is there to listen and counsel.

I have a bumper sticker that I happen to really believe in -

"America is returning to the Values Scouting never left".

[cjmiam]

I wholeheartedly agree with you chanoneescouter, with the exception of one thing, but I won't go there.

 

I think the sad reality is that a lot of the kids in Scouting do see their Scoutmaster much like the dad they wish they had. For many of the single parent kids out there, Scouting is more a family than their blood relation is.

 

As far as your bumper sticker... I can only pray that it's right.

 

While we can raise our kids the best way we know how, it sure doesn't help to have mixed messages from people that should know better. Nor does it help to see a ton of advertising from groups that seem like they are in business to put family values out of business.