Bad training leads to bad trainers

[Scoutfish]

Basement, that's the tough thing here: She had reference material from a genuine ( neighboring) council approved and used BALOO instructor. She brought her reference material with her.

 

As for the coimbined WEBLOT ( or what ever it was called) and IOLS...it never happened so at this pooint, I'd treat cub scout OLT as WEBLOT and not IOLS.

 

* Exception being that some Webelos leaders do sign up for and take IOLS during their Webelos DL years so that they do not have to start over after transfering to a ASM< position.

 

But, in that case, it is still IOLS and Not WEBLOT..or OWLT ..or whatever it was called from week to week.

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Yeah...reference materials. Can be tricky, no?

 

I myself have 3 shelves full of BSA guides, books, supplimentals, and G2SS. I have the Cub Scout Handbooks from Tiger through Webelos. I also have the corresponding leaders guidebokks to go with them.

 

I can look up stuff day and night and find descrepancies all over.

 

So, this woman has "BSA " litereature given to her from a BSA council approved / qualified instructor. THis instructor basically says these are the rules and the literature has all the BSA stamps, signs, logos , etc....

 

Who is going to say :" Hey, I bet this is allw rong!"

 

For that matter , you and I could just as easily challenge the copy of G2SS that my CC carries around that he brought back from the last RT when it was given to him by our DE.

 

We like to say " Show me in writting!" to BSA rules or regulations we question.

 

Well, she did! She laid them right on the table.

[Eagle92]

2Cub,

 

 

Moose is right on. Here are some relevent quotes form the article in BSA's TRAINING TIMES found here http://scouting.org/Training/TrainingUpdates/Archives/201111.aspx and orignially published Nov. or Dec. 2011.

 

Outdoor Training Update

 

There is a lot of discussion in councils and on on-line discussion groups about changes in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders. There was some talk here last year about combining the courses.

 

As was noted in an issue of Training Times earlier this year, we have backed off on that. There are too many differences in the outdoor programs across the range of our program, and there are too many differences among youth. We are working on updates to IOLS and OLSWL along with the Outdoor Adventures team...

 

In addition to other prescribed training, Scoutmasters and assistants should attend an Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course to be considered trained....

 

 

 

[DLChris71]

I don't see my council even offering OWLS just BALOO, IOLS and Wood Badge. Should a future Webelos Leader be looking for OWLS or can I get by with IOLS?

[Scoutfish]

DLChris71 -

 

They used to offer it until around '09 or '10. Not many people signed up for it. Some were waiting to take a one and done combined OWL/ IOLS course. others figured they didn't need it since it was reccomended, but not required for Webelos DL's to have it. I know a few who figured tha since they would have to take IOLS the next yer anyways, why take OWLS.

 

As for BALOO, Yeah.... I hope they do get around to holding that in the fall instead of mid February as they have been doing up til now. Same for POW-WOW. They usually hold it in November, which is better than February, but September or October would be much better and make more sense as most poacks will have already gone p[ack camping by Mid October.

 

I asked Trey about the possiblitry of holding districy classes for BALOO, POW-WOW, anmd a few others.

 

Many of our leaders ( including me) in the northeastern side of our district have to drive about 2 hours to get to Bowers for training. That means I have to get up by 5 am in order to be dressed and hitting the road at 6 am.

 

If the class was at Castle Hayne, I could leave 1 hour and 40 minutes later, or the class could start at the same time, and everybody in the district could go home afterward 2 hours earlier.

 

And I also told Trey that I would bet that just as many in our district would sign up as do for the council event since it would be less of a drive and not be a dark til dark full day.

 

They put out the Wood Badge S7-425-12 registration forms on the front table in the pre breakaway meeting just last night.

 

If you want one, stop by the scout office or call :

 

Beth Whitley - Registrar / Productions Manager (910) 395-1100 ext 29 bwhitley@bsamail.org

 

[Basementdweller]

Guess that is what she gets for trusting another volunteer.....

 

 

so my question is did she drop it or go to her source and correct his bad information?????

 

So how did she do being corrected?????

[Scoutfish]

Well, she questioned my "awareness at first...which is understndable. I mean, she was weighing her literatue against my word of mouth. Can't say I blame here.

 

But when the council commisioner and the DE confirmed what I had said , she made a few notes and said: "Well, that means a handfull from my pack need to retrain.

 

She was glad of what we said. I apologized to her and said I wasn't trying to upstage her, and she thanked me for pointinmg out a serious error and was glad now since they can get it all straightened out.

 

Not sure if she went to or is going to her source or not. Source was from a different council than ours and our RT meeting ended around 8:00ish....

 

I can tell you she is going to make good on the info and she is taking back to her pack also.

[Basementdweller]

twocubs it is easy to see what he took ask to see his training cards......IOLS he is good....OWL or WOW or Baloo needs to take IOLS.....

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/what_makes_a_trained_leader.pdf

[moosetracker]

Just to be clear:

 

BALOO - REQUIRED for Pack Camping.. by at least one person who is accompaning on a Pack Campout.

 

OWLS(Outdoor Webelos Leader Skills) - RECOMMENDED (by National, our council says it is required) for Leaders to take a Webelos den camping. (So if not required by your council, then why not just take IOLS??)

 

IOLS (Intro to Outdoor Leaders Skills) - REQUIRED by SMs & ASMs to be fully trained.. (also Venturing if running an outdoors program, (I believe) also by Varsity Leaders..)

 

IOLS & OWLS is 90% the same.. Regardless of what National says.. Most our districts run the two together then split off for two parts (wood tools vs pocket knife & Webs to BS transition and Plants/animals vs Outdoor activity pins).. A few of us me included.. Teach both, with those wanting OWLS staying a few hours longer in order to get the Outdoor activity pins & Webs to BS transition. (and they get firmly told which wood tools the Webs can and cannot use)..

 

 

[Eagle92]

Yep IOLS and WeLOT are 90% identical, in fact the WeLOT book I have references the old BSHB and IOLS syllabus.

 

We did a combined IOLS/WeLOT in January. To My knowledge it was the first time WeLOT was offered in my council.

 

Luckily we got a dsitrict training chair who is not only as bad as I am in my addiction to Scouting, but also understands the importance of Cubs and already has created a loose plan with me to get some training done for new CS leaders in the fall.

[CalicoPenn]

Twocub,

 

I wonder if a version of the following answer to the newly crossed dad would negate a need for a cite:

 

"In this Troop, OWLS does not substitute for IOLS. We require anyone who wants to be an ASM to take IOLS, whether they took OWLS or not. If you took OWLS, you'll be a little ahead of the game, but the programs are so different that this Troop does not rely on OWLS training".

 

 

[qwazse]

My rant about EDGE aside (although really, if courses said: "Have participants read page x from book y," it would do a lot to remedy propagation of misinformation. Paying for photocopies of material with plagiarized trademarks is just ridiculous.)

 

All of this comes off as oh-so-much horse-hockey to a guy who took his kids car camping when they were still in a crib, and backpacking before they crossed over, with a guy who took his daughter backpacking when she was four.

 

I am so glad I never wasted my time with OWLS. I am thankful for the den leader who did, even though she came back dogmatically telling me I was tying the taught-line hitch wrong! It was more important to me that everyone felt comfortable with taking the little gompers camping.

 

I was even a little impatient with IOLS, but at least it introduced me to geocaching, which I enjoy -- much to my family's chagrin. But really, if you took BALOO or OWLS, there should be a short catch-up course that gives you everything you need to get up to speed.

 

In fact, at summer camp, IMHO, we should send the new adults to Trail to First Class program and have them get their SPL sign off on IOLS requirements.

[Eagle92]

In fact, at summer camp, IMHO, we should send the new adults to Trail to First Class program and have them get their SPL sign off on IOLS requirements.

 

As long as it is NOT "one and done" I can live with that. I know in the IOLS syllabus is said that instructors could hand out sheets to have the participants get signed off as they do the skills. I think that is one reason why "One and Done" exist and why Sailing complains of having to teach Eagles their basic knots again.

[moosetracker]

Well qwase, if you took geocaching in you IOLS course, someone at your course chose to change the syllabus, and teach what they wanted to teach. There is only good old fashioned orienteering taught in both IOLS & OWLS..

[ScoutNut]

I would always question anything that sounds fishy. Reference material is only as good as the source of the material. If that source is a single person who is creating the material then it is highly questionable.

 

Heck, I can copy some logos, and letterhead off the 'net, and put together a "notice" from the IRS that taxes have been rolled back 50% across the board. Does not make it true.

 

'Fish, I would encourage your CC friend to contact the other council's Council Training Chair and register a complaint. I would also touch base with your DE and make sure the other council is notified about the bad info being taught at their training. You don't know if it is just one trainer gone wild, or someone at the council offices, but what you DO know is that YOUR leaders are attending these trainings, and being taught bogus info that could potentially harm their programs.

 

The problem with the availability of Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders is the same as with BALOO when it was introduced. BALOO was not required, then it was not followed up on, no actual enforcement. So volunteers were not signing up for a day long training. We had to cancel 3 trainings due to lack of participants. Once BSA made it required, and put it on the Tour Permit, then we started getting folks at training.

 

Webelos Outdoor is the same. We have had some success at getting the few Webelos leaders who are interested trained by combining it, in part, with IOLS. It gives us the total number of participants needed to make the training financially viable, and helps consolidate the number of trainers needed.