LDS Scouting vs Reg. Scouting

[KoreaScouter]

I did something similar, but not with a MB, it was on the 2nd class "using a map and compass, take a five mile hike" requirement. Summer camp, First Class Trail, there wasn't a topographical map of the area to be found in camp the whole week we were there, but all my FY Scouts were signed off on it...hello? So I showed them the requirement again in their HBs, explained we'd have to do it for real, and they all understood...

 

KS

[frankj]

It sounds like you did the right thing with the 5 mile hike requirement.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

When things like this happen, a Blue Card is signed off, requirements not taught an signed, do any of the forum members go back to the counselor and question him?

 

DO any of you talk to the camp director or advancement chair? In short do you do anything to prevent a re-occurence?

[sst3rd]

Yes. It is our reponsibility.

sst3rd

[k9gold-scout]

In our council the Advancement Comm. will interview the Progran Director of each camp to make sure that they know the correct procedure for signing blue cards. If possible some members of the comm. will visit different camps and make a report, and improvements will be suggested.

[Yak_Herder]

This thread has gone stale, but I just saw it in the archives and felt compelled to comment.

 

For the record, I am Mormon (note spelling ) and from what I read, ExperiencedUniform's descriptions were pretty close. ASM1's are, well... not so accurate.

 

Touching on a few of the topics mentioned:

 

*Sunday Camping

Members of the Church are NOT forbidden from camping on the Sabbath. However, Church policy does preclude the Scouting _unit_ from sponsoring camping on Sunday. There are likely more reasons for this, but I can think of at least two.

 

First, LDS young men twelve and older are normally priesthood holders. As such, they have specific priesthood duties to attend to, especially on Sundays. They would not be able to serve in their priesthood responsibilities if away camping on a regular basis.

 

Second, the absence of this policy would (and did before it was instituted) result in sending a mixed message. The Church teaches weekly participation in Sunday meetings as a _part_ of keeping the Sabbath Day holy. It should not be expected to compete with it's own Scouting unit promoting a contrasting viewpoint. The Sabbath is less about what you shouldn't be doing and more about what could be done.

 

Contrary to what was expressed, Eleven-year-old Scouts in LDS units _do_ camp. We share the BSA's goal of First Class/first year. Three campouts are required to achieve the rank of First Class. As such, Church policy specifically allows for this activity. In fact, it encourages it.

 

LDS weeks at Scout Camp are generously offered by many councils. This normally amounts to a week with a compressed schedule eliminating the need to camp on Sunday. When offered, they are greatly appreciated. Anyone unit is welcome to attend that same week. And, sometimes LDS units attend during "regular" weeks for various reasons.

 

*Membership

All boys (8-11) and young men (12-18) in the U.S. are expected to participate in Scouting. But remember, we are a worldwide Church. The same opportunity is not available in most countries. We are fortunate that conditions allow us to participate in the U.S.

 

Like any sponsor, we use the Scouting program to advance the goals we have as a church for our youth, but this should not be interpreted as exclusionary. LDS units are NOT limited to LDS youth. Friends and neighbors are encouraged to join and we welcome them when they do. To be honest, our recruiting skills are generally poor. With a regular supply of new boys coming in, we sometimes take membership for granted and fail to properly foster an interest within each young man ensuring that he is excited about joining. We could do better in this area.

 

*Relaxed requirements and Merit Badge Classes (Pow Wows, Midways, Madness, whatever you want to call them)

I hate 'em. Earning merit badges as a group, be it during Troop Meeting or a special event is a lousy way to do it in my book.

 

On the other hand, our kids are worked pretty hard. They do Webelos in one year, not two. Even still, most earn their Arrow of Light. Then, they get pushed pretty hard to earn First Class in a year. After that, they work at a quick pace to Eagle. Remember, they will be Venturers at 16 and the emphasis for Scouting awards will be greatly reduced.

 

None of this is an excuse for failing to meet the requirements. Having been in Scouting for several decades and more than a few councils, I see what I feel is too much emphasis on advancement in LDS units, but no significant differences in quality.

 

*Council or District dominance

If you live in one of the three councils in Utah (or a couple in Idaho or Arizona) and are not LDS, expect to be in the minority, but don't think of it as some kind of conspiracy. It's simply demographics. Everyone is a minority somewhere. This does not mean the minoritys needs should be dismissed.

 

Rather than lament the situation, revel in the opportunities. Membership, Money and Manpower are not the highest priorities of the officers and professionals. Program is the focus for the majority of the year. In my home council (Utah National Parks), FOS is normally completed in a month during the Fall _prior_ to the budget year. Camps are well equipped and maintained. Council and district events are normally very large. With a regular infusion of new Scouts practically guaranteed and progression from Cubs to Scouts to Venturing almost automatic, recruiting is not a driving force. There are thousands of Scouters to fill district and council positions. Drawing from a population that large leads to a leadership pool of a very high quality. You can throw me into that briar patch anytime.

 

*"Mormon"

The name Mormon is indeed taken from "The Book of Mormon". It is subtitled "Another Testament of Christ". Like the bible, it is actually an abridgement of writings by a number of prophets by another prophet named Mormon. Along with the Bible, we consider it scripture. Originally, the nickname "Mormon" was considered a derogatory term, but those days are long past and a negative sentiment is not normally associated with it today. I've never been offended by it. The actual name is the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". That's kind of long. Most folks want to shorten it up by using the name Mormon or LDS. We prefer the whole name to a nickname because the other forms tend to leave out "Jesus Christ" and it is important to us that others know we worship Christ.

 

[KoreaScouter]

Yak:

 

I know there's a big emphasis on advancement in LDS troops (wish all the troops/leaders I've been associated with had an emphasis!), and I also have to tell you that I've seen corners cut, too. In my observations, these cases were anecdotal and personality-dependent rather than a church-based conspiracy, but existed nonetheless. I believe the potential for it is greater when the pressure's on...we see the human dynamic all the time, in all areas of endeavor.

 

On the MB roundups/colleges, etc., I agree partially. If poorly organized or non-compliant with BSA policy, they're a joke. However, they can be well-done. We did a quality roundup last year, although it did take a tremendous amount of work. For some badges (chemistry and aviation are two that come to mind), having a group over a certain size provided the critical mass/leverage that got us access to real airplanes and chemistry labs...probably couldn't have gotten the same resources for just one or two.

 

KS

[captainron14]

Thank you very much YAK_Herder for setting these misinformed scouters straight.

 

I myself am a LDS Leader and through my travels (with the Military and as a Government Employee)have seen alot of different views on LDS units. Some "right on the money", some quite bizzar. Here are my personal experiences.

1. As a 1st Year Scout leader (LDS Blazer Leader) in the Salt Lake Valley we actively recruited and had almost 50% non-LDS membership.

2. LDS units DO NOT have sole license on MB factories. I have seen my share of "Counterfit" MBs being signed by Non-LDS MB "Pow-wows".

3. No one is "ordered" to be a leader. It is known as a "Calling" and it is an invitation by the Leader(Bishop) of the congregation (ward). You are free to turn the calling down. Many people do so. Nothing bad will happen.

4. I am a Brotherhood member of the OA. I was elected from a LDS troop who had active members in the OA. I was privilaged to just attend my own sons ordeal.

5. Just like any church, group, orgainization, Etc. LDS units have great leaders and their "warm bodies" taking up space.

The important fact is LDS Scouts are just as much a valuable part of this great organization as anyone else. So please keep your personal problems with the LDS Church seperate from your Scouting. Remember what the program is all about.

 

NOTE to Yak_herder:

Hi to everyone in the Santa Clara County Council, Gavalan District, Miwok Lodge and Camp High Sierra.

From One who began Scouting there.

Thanks,

CR14

 

 

[packsaddle]

KS, I want to second your frustration with MBs and the need to tighten this area of scouting. I have also seen nearly identical problems, mostly associated with our camp counselors but not exclusively. I try to limit the damage by telling our boys to focus their energies on active badges (waterfront, shooting sports, etc.). In my experience these are usually fairly well-done at camp and the only opportunity for some of them. For all the others I try to know the program in advance of camp. Craft badges are so-so and mostly fun anyway. Scoutcraft badges are often well-done and sometimes the First Aid Lodge is super for their stuff. The knowledge-based MBs such as Citizenship X, Env.Sci., and the nature stuff are spotty and I try to visit in advance to identify the duds (most of them are). I flatly refuse to give permission to do Env.Sci. at summer camp, for example. And how does a boy complete Oceanography in a couple of days in the mountains? Hello? And Family Life? Please! In general I try to make sure my boys spend a minimum of time sitting idly for a MB at Camp. The more physical activity and outdoor time, the better, even if it's Golf.

 

OGE, I complain loudly about this to the council. They do understand the problem but they say their resources are limited, and they are right. I say, in that case, limit the MBs offered and do a good job with those.

[mk9750]

Packsaddle,

 

"Golf"? Ouch, that hurt!

 

I think you're right on the money with your breakdown of good and bad MBs at summer camp. My only experience contrary to yours is Env. Science. Despite the fact (and you are right) that the badge requires sitting and observing, doing this badge at summer camp is far more likely to be of value to a Scout than doing on his own (at least at the summer camp we attend). Other than that though, I agree. Handicraft are supposed to be fun and expose a Scout to a new craft. The rquirements are minimal. If this isn't as tough as it could be, the damage is minimal.

Scoutcraft MBs depend completely on the instructors, and how they compare with what's available at home. Aquatics are almost always better at camp. I've never liked the rifle and shotgun program where we go, but I think that is just a local problem.

 

At our camp's Trail to 1st Class, we love our guys to go through this, but we want them to ask guys in our Troop to test and sign them off a day or two later. We've seen too many times where Scouts were told en masse what a compass does, and never got to actually use it. No way we are signing off for something like that.

 

The key, as most have pointed out here, is to check out every program in advance.

 

Mark

[packsaddle]

mk9750, OK, the golf thing was a little tongue-in-cheek and a little personal humiliation. The only time I ever played a full round (and last), I teed off on the first hole and the club tipped the ball so it went perpendicular to the intended direction, across a highway, bounced off a pine tree back across the highway and into a pond. Then my game went bad. My partner nearly died from laughter. Needless to say, my score would have been the envy of Dow Jones. And I have since maintained a certain sympathy for Gerald Ford.

My assessment of Env. Sci. is from, let's see, 7 years of trying at camp and they simply haven't invested in a good counselor yet. So I have written that one off. But it seems that we are establishing a pattern on the others. The shooting sports do sometimes fall flat (I caught one counselor failing a lefty to whom he had assigned a right-handed bow for archery MB. The boy was literally in tears until we corrected the handedness problem.). But for the most part, camp at least gets the safety thing and that occupies a lot of my mind. Fore!

[captainron14]

I'm still new to this web forum. Does the participants always drift so far from the topic? I mean realy, bad MB Counselors/MB Factories has nothing to do with the topic "LDS Scouting vs Reg. Scouting". No one sponsor of BSA is immune from problems with MB Counselors. So get over it, or start another Forum.

The value of the orginal topic is to dispell falsehoods and misunderstandings about how the LDS Church applies the Scouting program. And to make LDS Scouters aware of the concerns and problems of other Scouters.

So, lets get back to the orginal thread!

Thanks for listening!

I apologize if I have offended anyone.

 

CR14

[OldGreyEagle]

Captainron,

 

In the past some have tried to keep threads on subject, myself included. In the end, I have formed the opinion once a thread is out there, it becomes very much like Forrest Gumps feather, floating here and there and you are never sure where its' gonna land, if ever. The best thing you can do is strap on a helmet and let go.

[packsaddle]

Captainron14, Imagine starting this discussion with a group of people you don't know in one of the parks in that delightful town across the river from you. Most members of the group hang around to listen with variable interest and just a few are passionate enough about the subtle differences between LDS scouting and 'the regular old way' that they carry on with the discussion (in my region you'd be lucky to find enough people who know Mormons exist to have this discussion). But once in a while, someone makes a remark that reminds yet someone else of something else that they would like to share and they just blurt it out. Then the group focuses on this new, more interesting discussion - or not. There's probably some pseudoscientific psychological explanation for this. And the remark I just made about pseudoscience might induce a objection from an insecure psychologist that carries us even farther away from...now what was that original topic again? But you're right; these threads suffer from ADD.

 

And most of the time respondents will indicate offense if any is taken. If they don't say anything, no problem, if they do it's too late anyway. But thanks for trying. Don't worry, be happy.

[red feather]

First off, thanks to all who have put their two cents into this campfire about LDS scouting. I have little first hand exposure it and appreciate the information listed. Good information allows proper responses and prevents misconceptions (usually). Thanks again.

 

CR14 and other new posters, welcome to the campfire. Sometimes we stay the straight and narrow sometimes we stray. Signs of a good conversation found around a good fire among good people.

 

yis