LDS Scouting vs Reg. Scouting

[yarrow]

What's the difference? Some one told me there were some obvious differences in approach.

[scoutldr]

I'm not a Mormon, but we have some LDS units in our Council. The most obvious difference is at Camporees they all pack up and leave on Saturday night, because apparently they are not allowed to do anything on a Sunday, except go to church. I also recently taught CS Leader training and a brand new CM told me that his religious leader had "ordered" him to be the Cubmaster and go to training as his "job" within the church. Also, I think by BSA policy, all units have to be open to all boys regardless of race or religion, but in practice I don't think that happens...non-LDS boys are not actively excluded, but I don't think they are actively recruited, either (such as at school night Roundups). These are just my observations, and I'm sure if I'm wrong, you know who will set us straight.

[CubsRgr8]

A charter organization may restrict membership in its scouting unit as it sees fit, as long as such restrictions don't violate BSA rules. A good example of this is a well-regarded troop in Milwaukee where membership is restricted to the boys who attend the parochial middle school which sponsers the unit. However, most charter organizations don't limit membership in any way, viewing sponsership of a scouting unit as a form of community service.

[ExperiencedUniforms]

Hi Yarrow:

 

I'm not LDS. Our Commissioner team had a nice presentation by an LDS Scouter about how they use the BSA program. I'm not an expert, but here is the information I remember. I am sure that there are others that have a better understanding.

 

They use the same books, camps, training materials, etc. They also suplement with materials provided by the LDS Scouting community. They do not add or subtract from the requrements for the badges. The boys do the same requrements as all Scouts.

 

Most LDS units are small, maybe as few as 10 boys from cubs through Boy Scouts. They consist primarily of the congregation of their Ward. The LDS-BSA program is based on age, rather than grade. It is also in sync with their spiritual development path, which they call the priesthood. Not all LDS boys are required to be in Scouts, but are strongly encouraged to participate.

 

As Sctldr pointed out, adults get a call saying that they will be the CM, SM, etc. The church leaders try to pick an adult that has a natural tendency to do this, but some times they don't have that option, and a person is told to be the leader. I think that they also only allow women to work with boys up until they reach 11, after that age, men are chosen to be Scout leaders. As in any unit, sometimes they get an enthusiastic leader; sometimes they get a warm body to fill the uniform.

 

The LDS program does not utilize the Tiger program. Boys join at 8 as Wolves, 9 Bears, 10 Webelos. At 11 they enter a pre-Scouting program that has most of the Boy Scout materials, but they do not camp. from 12 to 14 they are Boy Scouts. From 14-18 they are Varsity Scouts, Venturers, or Explorers. The boys do not chose to move up, the age determines the progression.

 

LDS Units in large areas with diverse Scout units may not allow non-LDS members in their units. Those in small rural areas or areas where they have the only scout units, they do recruit non-LDS membership. As in any unit sponsored by a church, they do not prostelize(sp?) to the non-LDS youth.

 

The LDS church is very supportive of the Scouting program. They were instrumental in developing the original Explorer program in the 1920s. They were also the first sponsors of many units in the early days of Scouting.

 

A personal observation is that I have not seen many boys in LDS units in the Order of the Arrow, but I did drive an OA officer to preside at an election in an LDS unit. I am not that involved in OA myself, so I am not positive if the observation is universal. I beleive that our Council has one week set aside at Summer camp for LDS units. Other units are not barred during that week, and LDS units are not barred from attending any week they chose, it may just be a logistical choice due to the small size of the units.

 

I notice that a larger percentage of LDS youth (as compared to the scouting community) earn their faith award, and most earn the Eagle Scout award.

 

Doing recharter for one of my packs last year, I found two boys that were primary members of their LDS unit, and dual-registered members of the pack in the public school they attend. They enjoyed being in the school pack to be with their school mates, and also did the program through their church. I think that the parents attend an evening service on Wednesday, and the boys are put in Scouts while the parents attend services.

 

If you are really interested in learning more, try "LDS Scouting" at http://www.google.com search. I got over 8000 matching pages.

 

Keep on Scoutin' ora

[ASM1]

I want to tell you a story, a story that I know is very true because it is my story and my personal experience with Mormans and scouting. Sorry, but this will be a little long so the total thought can be expressed. As with about 90% of the scout leaders in the USA no matter what religion, I was a scout as a youth. That is where we get our leaders. When I was scout as a youth and became of age to catch the "fumes", (perfume & car fumes)I started dating a young girl who was Morman. That would be 7th and 8th grade. Well, anyway we met when I was in 7th grade and we dated until our Junior year in high school. I had a great job and was working on my Eagle. Her father was impressed with my scouting activities. We planned to marry. When we announced our intentions, her father immediately requested and was granted a transfer to another state to keep his daughter from marrying a Methodist. She was 17 at the time and still a minor so she had no choice but to go. Well, they moved to a state that has a large Morman population and her father arranged a marriage with a young mentor within the company he worked for. They had three children and were married for 13 years. Her three children were 2 boys and 1 girl. During those 13 years we kept in constant contact through letters. On occassions they would return home to vist family on Christmas. We would sieze the time to vist with each other. After 13 years of unhappy marriage on both parts, she finally announced that they were divorcing. I immediatly sent her an airline ticket to my new home state and we were married 3 weeks after she arrived. That was 24 years ago. Her children from her previous marriage came with her and were wlecomed with open arms. They are all still Morman. My wife and I had one child, a boy when she moved here and he was raised Methodist. My step sons were all active in Boy Scouts and involved in a Morman church troop. My son and I were involved in an extremely large, active, and aggressive troop which took many extreme trips. At first my step sons would never ever camp on a Sunday. They were forbidden. Yet they really wanted to attend the extreme trips we attended that were always too far away to return Saturday night. Well, here is the end of this story. My 2 step sons left their Morman troop and joined ours. Since then they are all above the age of 21 and are actively forming our Venture Crew, and guess what? They are still Morman, but they would never ever miss a full camping weekend. They camp Sunday's! Oh, did I mention? My Morman wife, she will be attending Wood Badge training next year which will be held on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday weekend, and a Saturday, Sunday, Monday weekend. And she would also never miss a full camping weekend. Scouts love to be in God's country, and what better chapel to hold a Scout's own service in?

 

We are also great friends with my wife's x-husband and his new wife. So, you see, nothing is ever carved in granite. What are my opinions on Mormans in Scouting? Well, lets put it this way. A Scout is reverent! A Scout does his duty to God. God created Earth, and no religion on Earth has the right to take the freedom of Earth away from a child. It will change.

 

ASM1

[acco40]

With your vast knowledge of the "Morman" church, maybe you ought to know how to spell it and that the term is not welcomed by all.

[bmchugh]

I live in a council where the CE and DE's are all LDS and the majority of our scouting population is also. However, there are units in each district that are not sponsored by the LDS church. Unfortunately, almost all council and district activities are planned with the church's views of scouting in mind (Thursday, Friday, Saturday Woodbadge; Friday, Saturday Jamboree, etc.) Our council is planning a jamboree this spring and will not provide tent camping facilities for my Webelos group (with their parents) because the LDS packs do not do overnighter experiences until the boys are in boy scouting. Sometimes I wish they would be more accomodating of the packs who are within their council bounderies and are just trying to follow the BSA program (that happens to differ in some respects to the LDS scouting program).

[scoutldr]

That's bizarre. I can see individual units having a program tailored to the beliefs of the CO, but at the District and Council level, the BSA program should be the same nationwide. This is tantamount to the BSA sanctioning the beliefs of one religion to the exclusion of all the others. I thought we were supposed to be tolerant and inclusionary? I can and do agree with the tenet of "duty to God", and agree that religion has a part in the movement...but only if it remains ecumenical. When a Council is operated to meet the demands of one religion, they are forcing those beliefs on others and that's discrimination.

 

BTW, acco40, if they don't like the term "Mormon", why is it called the "Book of Mormon"? Educate us.

[eisely]

The most obvious difference is that LDS sponsored troops do bug out on Saturday nights from weekend events. That is their choice.

 

I also share the perception that many adult leaders are appointed by the church elders. I went through basic leader training several years ago with a couple of younger LDS guys who had been appointed. They were not objecting, and were very sincere and enthusiastic about the training and the scouting program. Maybe this is more of a reflection of the level of enthusiasm that one observes in people of this faith generally.

 

In the town I lived in in Southern California there was an active LDS troop and it was very common to go to merit badge counselors outside of one's own unit. Among the non LDS scouts, the LDS affiliated MB counselors had the reputation of being much more lenient.

[ExperiencedUniforms]

Hi Scoutldr:

 

I think what acco40 is objecting to is the spelling.

 

Also, the book of Mormon is the document, not the focus of the faith. It would be similar to referring to Christians as "New Testements," Jewish people as "Torahs," or followers of Islam as "Quarans."

 

I guess it probobly wouldn't offend a Christian, rather a compliment to be addressed in this manner, I suppose, but i think it is the spelling that acco40 is referencing.

 

I would hope that Yarrow started this thread as a genuine quest to learn more about the approach that the LDS church has with Scouts, and not a springboard to bringing out bad feelings about the LDS church.

 

Keep on Scoutin' ora

[RobK]

scoutldr,

 

It's not bizarre, it's realistic. Planning council and district activities to serve the group which is by far in the majority only makes sense. Why plan a camporee such that 85% of the troops and staff won't be there? I speak as someone who keeps Saturday as the Sabbath, so I know what it's like to be "on the receiving end" of planning for the majority. It's simply realistic to plan things to accomodate the most people. I understand bmchugh's point that it's inconvenient for him for the council to accomodate the religous beliefs of the majority of its membership, but no one is asking him to compromise his religous beliefs. I didn't see any complaining from him that he was excluded from participation because he keeps Thursday as the Sabbath. Are you suggesting that the vast majority of the council membership compromise their religous beliefs for his convenience, simply because he doesn't see anything wrong with having events on Sunday? That's how it seems. Is that what you call tolerance and inclusion? Should Orthodox Jews all open their shops on Saturdays too?

 

-Rob

[bmchugh]

RobK,

My concern about our council letting activities be influenced by the LDS church is not because they don't include Sunday camping. We can camp on Sundays as a unit anytime we want.

 

The LDS church does not allow cub age boys and families to camp together within the cub 'program'. So, when I asked the council planners to allow my non-LDS Webelos and parents to be able to camp overnight at the Jamboree, we were told it would not be possible because it isn't appropriate for that to happen at scouting events in our area.

 

I do encourage pack camping in my unit as well as Webelos overnighters and when I tried to find out about taking a BALOO class in our council, it has never even been offered yet, as only a limited number of units would even need this training. Does that mean our council should not offer BALOO? I think they should because my unit and others like it within our council, deserve to have access to BSA national programs despite our 'minority' status.

 

Beth

[frankj]

I want to reply to something eisely mentioned, the lieniency (real or perceived) of LDS with regard to merit badges: In our area one of the LDS groups sponsored an advancement day that included Citizenship in the Nation MB. The intended conselor could not make it, so they had to substitute one. My son spent about two hours there and came out with ALL the requirements signed off, with the exception of the letter to a member of Congress. There is no way they covered the material the way it should be covered for this merit badge. Afterwards, I checked with our district advancement chair, and the MB conselor who led that session was not previously registered for the CitNation Badge, but sent in a registration dated that same day.

 

Now, this is not an attack on the LDS. But it is a criticism of slipshod MB conseling. If you think you may be involved in a merit badge factory, then you probably are.

 

Our troop discounted the approval given that day and put the guys through the regular paces for that merit badge, and they are no worse for the wear.

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

"A Scout is Reverent" means in part that we respect the beliefs of others. This is a two-way street. I've been at Council/District level events with LDS units there, and they do pull out Saturday night. I'd never hold it against them, and would resonably expect the same consideration from District if my Webelos den wanted to camp in accordance with BSA policy. By the same token, if there were a Hindu troop in an adjoining campsite, that shouldn't prevent us from cooking hamburgers in ours.

 

On MB leniency, in my opinion the whole MB counselor registration/council approval, training, adherence to standards, and SM selectivity is perhaps the biggest thing that needs tightening up across the board...and it's not particular to any category of Chartered Organization, either. There are countless unregistered counselors out there, and there's no check/balance since blue cards don't go to District. Counselors basically work for units, invisible to the council, but the unit doesn't approve them, the council does. How many counselor applications are turned down by council? I've never seen one.

 

One of my biggest headaches at summer camp is running down counselors who screwed up the blue cards -- not trained. Or finding out after the fact that requirements were skipped or exceeded.

 

FrankJ, on your MB day experience, your district/council is to blame for that. It's easy to second guess, but if the real counselor couldn't show, the badge should have been dropped rather than shove an unregistered amateur in there. I recently organized our district's annual MB roundup, and spent weeks beforehand getting counselors registered, trained, familiar with the requirements, and so on. Ditto with the units and their Scouts. It went well, and nothing was fudged.

 

There's only two ways a SM can fix this at his level. One, don't assign Scouts to a MB counselor you know is not following standards. Two, communicate your dissatisfaction with a MB counselor to your district/council, since that's where they're registered.

 

I understand your frustration knowing that requirements weren't met, but I don't think you can legally make them do it again if the counselor signed them off. I tried to do it for a summer camp MB a couple years ago that I know they couldn't have met the requirements for, but my hands were tied. If you cajoled the Scouts into re-doing the work, good on 'ya, but a savvy parent could call you out on it, I think.

 

KS

[frankj]

KS, I think if a parent had tried to make an issue of it, it would not have led anywhere. This business about the MB conselor being the last word, in this particular incident, is something I just don't buy. And yes, I know the rules that we don't add or subtract anything to advancement. The boys from our troop knew this thing was very sketchy and none of them had a problem with going over the material for real with a CN MB conselor associated with our troop.

 

Right or wrong, I put a little more importance on the Citizenship series than on some of the other badges. So that is how we handled it. I wonder about the boys from other troops who attended the session and think they properly completed the CN badge requirements.