Training and J2E: We have to go through training again!

[Eagle92]

All,

 

HERE IS THE KEY POINT (caps for emphasis):

 

Now, if BSA decided to make RT count as continuing training, and just brought up the individual changes here and there...then his example would work.

 

ROUND TABLE IS SUPPOSE TO BE CONTINUING EDUCATION (again caps for emphasis) RT is where updates, and changes are suppose to be brought to folks attention. HECK if look at training codes, ROUNDTABLES HAS ITS OWN TRAINING CODES [bS RT is H06, CS RT is H14, sorry cannot find VS Huddle or Venturing RT ( or whatever it is now called) codes].

 

And thinking about it, I remember when I use to fill out a training report when I attended RTs back in the day.

 

I think that is the problem, heck I know it's the problem. Someone at national thinks RTs are not being used. The training update even says that.

 

 

[Eagle732]

Maybe doing some continuing ed instead of having to take an entire course over would be more reasonable.

I know where you're coming from Scoutfish, as a paramedic (retired) I had to keep up to date on changes, but they didn't make me take the entire course over every time they changed a protocol!

I figured out a long time ago that some of this stuff from National is just a silly waste of time. I'll just keep on taking boys camping and ignore the silliness until they revoke my membership.

[shortridge]

The BSA has long believed that a tenured leader does not need to take basic training every time there is a new course...

 

Anyone have a clue what "tenured leader" means in this context?

[Eagle92]

Short,

 

That is what is disturbing. It says tenured leaders once trained are always trained. BUT then contradicts itself.

 

 

[FScouter]

If you want "Excellence", i.e. the JTE award, keep your training up to date. If not, then continue as an existing leader and keep your old training. Nobody's membership is going to get revoked.

[jrush]

"Someone at national thinks RTs are not being used. The training update even says that."

 

Well, Eagle, when there are entire Councils who don't have a single district doing RT, I wonder where national would get that idea...

[click23]

All of the units in my district recharters in January, and as a commissioner and a member of the district training staff I cannot express how disgusted I am with national on this. They should have told us this 10 months ago so we could plan for this. Just last week I saw on nationals training website was a list of previous training courses equated to the current courses, it appears that this was pulled when they posted this new training update.

 

Unlike some here, I personally like most of the JTE requirements, it can used as a road map for a poor unit to improve. It is we were told by our pro's that previous training courses would count. I cannot hold this against to pro's, this what everyone has been told for years, old training counts in place of new training for awards and such.

 

Shortridge, the way I took "tenured leader" is a leader that was trained under a previous training progression.

 

[BadenP]

Scoutfish

 

Once again this thread is NOT about firefighting, cpr or first aid, those are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Please stay on topic.

 

Eagle92

I really think you have blown this up way out of proportion, F scouter is essentially correct, pigs must be flying, you can play Nationals little game to get the patch or continue on as usual.

[Eagle92]

Jrush,

 

Please tell me you are joking?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

BP,

 

I may have blown this out of proportion, and I apologize. When I read the statement, I was blown away and very angry. I have do a lot for Scouting, and if I had to retake training it would be detrimental to the #1 purpose: program for the scouts.

 

I keep up to date to the best of my ability. heck I find out things before the pros find out at times. IMHO any leader worth their salt will keep up with the latest news from national. Now whether they agree with it or not, or whether they think it will work with their unit, is a different story.

 

Gotta remember I'm also on the district level, and I want units to get J2E. I also think some elements of it are better than the QU and CU programs it has replaced b/c it appears more program oriented.

 

If a mod wants to close the thread, I have no problem.

[Eagle732]

"Once again this thread is NOT about firefighting, cpr or first aid, those are irrelevant to the topic at hand"

 

Hey BadenP are you the moderator here? People using their real life experiences to relate to the topic at hand is a problem?

 

All my ASMs are active or retired fire, police or military. There's a reason why I choose these guys as ASMs.

[Lisabob]

It is one thing to keep up to date so that (for example) we don't have leaders teaching boys to dig trenches around their tents or some other seriously outdated ideas. In that, I can relate to Scoutfish's examples. In my line of work, too, we are expected to maintain some level of professional development and stay on top of the latest developments. (Of course, I also get paid for doing that.)

 

It is another for BSA to twist itself into contortions and come out with "new and improved" versions of trainings every few years, where the change is in the form and not really in the content. It is sillier still, for BSA to say in one breath "your old training is still good" and in another, "but it isn't good when it comes to JTE."

 

I don't have a lot of patience for leaders who beg off with the old "if I have to spend my time in training then the program suffers due to my absence" argument. But I do have a good deal of sympathy for the people who are now raising an eyebrow and saying, what, again? And of course, this new BSA policy (like so much else) wasn't communicated in a very helpful manner.

 

And while we're at it - if the training was poor quality, as it routinely is where I am located, then expecting me to do it again, again, again, again, is just not going to work very well. It will simply cause more people to find "outs" or ignore JTE, or fudge the record somehow - or quit scouting. Because the bottom line, going back to Eagle92's thread title, is that we're all volunteers, and we do **not** have to go through training again if we really don't want to.

[Basementdweller]

So did anyone think this is just about money?????

 

 

I know our district and council offers training that is required to net a minimum of 40%.......

 

 

Honestly, as pointed out, how many times can you be taught to tie a square knot, lashing, food safety, or youth protection. I understand refreshers.

 

 

[krier32]

"No, you missed the point, he tried to use firefighting as an example as to why having to retake training was a waste..except, that is wrong"

 

As a FF, I didn't take his post to mean this.

 

I took it as meaning that all you need to do is be trained in the updates to the course, not go through the entire course again.

 

I believe it has already been said, but aren't roundtables supposed to accomplish this?

 

I see no reason to try and make anyone go through an entire course again just for the sake of a patch. National needs to pull their heads out of their ***** on this. With people trying to make ends meet and working longer hours just to put food on the table, they should not have to retake entire training courses. Maybe it's just another way to nickle and dime us once again on top of recharter fees, FOS, and everything else we have to pay for.

[Eagle92]

All,

 

A few comments.

 

1) I do not believe money came into it. Believe it or not we have an SE who wants leaders trained,and have been told to do training, even if we lose money. Yep you hear me, our DE and Se said if we go over budget on trainging it's ok. Just need to minimize it.

 

2)While I think J2E is a better program than QU and CU since their is more program input, I do see the new, I'm sorry national but this is new, trained leader requirements as detriment.

 

3) When mandatory training comes, and units cannot get recharter until they met their mandatory training requirements, how is this going to affect recharters? Will units be denied rechartering b/c the leader hasn't found the time to redo basic training he did 5+ years ago? And if you do accept older training for rechartering, then why are you changing the standard for the Trained Strip and JtE?

 

The last one is my concern. What are we going to do about rechartering?

[Scoutfish]

" And if you do accept older training for rechartering, then why are you changing the standard for the Trained Strip and JtE?"

 

Look at it this way;

 

You go to your local garage and see that the owner had a bunch of framed certificates on the wall. You look closer and see they are the ASE training certificates for all the mechanics who waork at the garage. They cover different areas of training, but as you look, you see the same training listed over againand again. The only difference is the date: 2003, 204, 205, 2006, etc...

 

WEll, once the mechanic was trained in brake systems or a/c systems, or electrical systems...well, he hasn't forgotten what he knows. The training he trook is as good as it ever was, but he kept taking newer training to keep up with the ever changing world of automobiles.

 

Now, a 1995 Chevey truck's fuel injection system is still going to be the same system it was the day it was installed at the factory, but sooner or later, you will find out that you also need to work on a fuel injection system on a 21011 chevy truck.

 

Scouting is changing all the time. The way youth grow up, face the world and interact is constantly changing too.

 

Am I the only person here who doesn't text? Am I the only one who uses a cell phone for calls and nothing else? I don't text, I don't use internet with my phone either.

 

Todays youth probably hardly ever use their cell phones to call people.

 

While pitching tents, lighting fires, and showing boys how to avoid poison ivey has not changed much in the years, alot of other stuff has.

 

And it's the part of the training that covers this other stuff that is different and NOT the same as what you took in the past.

 

o, yeah, the training you took years ago will definantly serve you well with todays Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Crews or Ships. But that's just the basics. Every day there is new stuff happening and changeds being made.

 

JTE isn't about just being trained, it is about being trained in the most up to date , newest thing out there.

 

It's not a Journey to okayness award, it is Journey to EXCELLENCE. Cream of the crop, top of the top, best of the best.

 

So that is why what you took back when is absolutely fine for being a leader, but not good enough to earn JTE.

 

Baden, before you say anything about CPR, carbuerators or what not...stopp and read the sentances slowly....

 

It's not WHAT traing I or anybody else is comparing, but the WHY of theb traing.

And again, I didn't bring up CPR first aid , or anything else like that...I RESPONDED TO that example.

 

The reason for the training..not the TYPE of trainng.

 

Same for todays soldiers. They are constantly having to train in new techniques, new types of combat, and train to fight in different situations to keep up with the ver chaning world.

 

Want good examples: COMPUTERS! E-MAIL, MERIT BADGES, YTP, COMMUNICATIONS!

 

Used to be, if you wanted to see somebody speak, you had to go see him,. Now you can watch web-casts, listen to Macuzza on line, download PDF documents in a second instead of going to print shop or waiting on mail, you can electronically file a tour plan in about 15 minutes versus filling out a tour permit in 30 and having to drive to or mail it to the scout office.

 

The med form for a Camporree in your distrcit is not the same as filling one out for Philmont.

 

That shortwinded 5'2" 380 pound guy who wheezes while walking may be okay for a den meeting, but will not be able to tale a troop to Betchel..unlike the past trip to Philmount.

 

WB vs WB21C While I do not condone one over the other, I know they are different.

 

THE WORLD OF SCOUTING IS CHANGING. The updated training is an attempt to catch leaders up.

 

 

And that is why you need to train in the latest training in order to qualify as having taken the journey to Excellence . It's a constant journey, not a one time jaunt.